James Wright Foley executed -RIP

[Harpa Timsah 13,258]

In any complex problem, a solution will not be found by ignoring one aspect and focusing on another. In this issue, it is politics, religion, and other things at play.

[Harpa Timsah 13,258]

is ISIS still a jv team or are they a varsity team now?

They have all the good American weapons... so...

[SMOKE 1,426]

They have all the good American weapons... so...

yah. but, have they been officially promoted yet?

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

The common denominator with these terrorist groups is not religion, it's territorial advantage. Educated people who go back to their roots to support 'their' people are not really doing so primarily because of religion but from a sense of affiliation with the cultural heritage. It's a fairly easy thing to work out if you ask yourself the mathematical question, which group is the subset, muslims or terrorists? Concentrating on bashing the muslim religion will fail entirely to provide a solution to the ISIS crisis.

How many religion are represented? How are the people involved judging if others live or die in their territory? What is their proposed new government based on?

Now you do the math.

[Curmudgeon 227]

There is no requirement for a muslim to approve of, ascribe to or support terrorism. The vast majority of muslims do not. You can find out more about the geopolitical issues or you can continue to paint the muslim religion as inherently evil, which is pretty pointless and unhelpful.

[Harpa Timsah 13,258]

I really haven't seen anyone painting all muslims as evil in this thread. Is this a strawman argument?

Oh, maybe one... but everyone ignores that...

[Curmudgeon 227]

You can come out and say it, or you can imply it by saying things like, 'so much for the religion of peace'. The religion itself is not at fault, if it were, then all muslims would be more or less supportive of ISIS and yet, hardly any actually are. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that religion is being used as a tool for the leaders of these terrorist organisations, not a justification of their actions and making facetious comments about muslims is a pointless exercise and at worst puts the backs up of those who practice the religion without any disrespect to peoples of other communities (which would be the vast majority). This focus is less than helpful.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Curmudgeon

[Harpa Timsah 13,258]

You can come out and say it, or you can imply it by saying things like, 'so much for the religion of peace'. The religion itself is not at fault, if it were, then all muslims would be more or less supportive of ISIS and yet, hardly any actually are. Therefore, I think it's safe to say that religion is being used as a tool for the leaders of these terrorist organisations, not a justification of their actions and making facetious comments about muslims is a pointless exercise and at worst puts the backs up of those who practice the religion without any disrespect to peoples of other communities. This focus is less than helpful.

Right, but who said "religion of peace" except maybe one that all ignore?

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

There is no requirement for a muslim to approve of, ascribe to or support terrorism. The vast majority of muslims do not. You can find out more about the geopolitical issues or you can continue to paint the muslim religion as inherently evil, which is pretty pointless and unhelpful.

That is backwards.. All of A are in B does not mean all of B are in A .. I'm not buying into the FUD this time around.

If I make a list of what 99% of ISIS terrorists have in common one of them is the religion they share. That makes it important. There are plenty of other religions represented in the area (for now) are they part of this group? Why not? You would think their interests would aline...

I have no doubt the top few tiers of leadership are in it for power, revenge, and hatred but the tool used to control rank and file and the civilians they dominate is religion and for those on the bottom fear.

Edited August 20, 2014 by OnMyWayID

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

That is backwards.. All of A are in B does not mean all of B are in A .. I'm not buying into the FUD this time around.

If I make a list of what 99% of ISIS terrorists have in common one of them is the religion they share. That makes it important. There are plenty of other religions represented in the area (for now) are they part of this group? Why not? You would think their interests would aline...

I have no doubt the top few tiers of leadership are in it for power, revenge, and hatred but the tool used to control rank and file and the civilians they dominate is religion and for those on the bottom fear.

We can certainly recognise the ideology they share, which is heavily influenced by extreme religious philosophy and dressed im the trappings of religion.

But so what?

How does this help to explain how young men from London end up cutting off the head of an American journalist in a country that isn't their own?

I think the poster is rightly concerned about people using events like this to justify prejudice against Muslims in general. While it hasn't happened in this thread, its not hard to find a fair few others on VJ where that is the case.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Hail Ming!

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

That was not the current debate but lets deflect anyway: I answered that question my first post - A person in a vulnerable time in their lives can be influenced by fulfilling something they are missing in their life such as companionship, friends, love, a feeling of belonging, etc, etc. When the sample population is in the many millions most possible scenarios are going to be realized.

Back on the religion thing:

Most people can agree that Christianity and the catholic church were just short of evil in the middle ages. They tortured people and burned them and enforced obedience - scientists had to hide discoveries out of fear. This is said over and over again in these forums and nobody argues the point.. Has anyone ever felt the need to then say "But not all Catholics back then were bad people and not all in the church supported that" ????

Edit: I want to add I'm not trying to make direct comparison to religions in the middle ages. The "evil" came into mostly complete control there.

Edited August 20, 2014 by OnMyWayID

[Harpa Timsah 13,258]

We can certainly recognise the ideology they share, which is heavily influenced by extreme religious philosophy and dressed im the trappings of religion.

But so what?

How does this help to explain how young men from London end up cutting off the head of an American journalist in a country that isn't their own?

I think the poster is rightly concerned about people using events like this to justify prejudice against Muslims in general. While it hasn't happened in this thread, its not hard to find a fair few others on VJ where that is the case.

You say so what? I think it gives us important insight into recruitment techniques, and that knowledge can be used for counter movements.

Le me ask this another way. Could ISIS have done this without religion? Let's say yes. But why did they choose to do it involving religion? Understanding that is central to this whole thing.

In these regions, politics and religion are not separate, and trying to separate them out in a western fashion leads to dead ends. A lot of this ISIS stuff is rooted in sunni/shia conflicts.

I don't think that changes the fact that there are millions or billions of muslims who are good people in the world, and I think that most people are able to separate the two.

Edited August 20, 2014 by Harpa Timsah

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Whats the deflection? I'm generally interested to know why people single out religion in relation to groups like this. Its certainly a key part of the ideology, but i think theres a tendency to focus on that to the exclusion of everything else.

I get how lonely desperate people can look for companionship in weird ways, but a cult that brainwashes people in sawing off someone's head with a knife!? I don't buy it, I think a person who does that would have started out insane or psychotic.

On religion - I think most people wouldn't argue that point about the Catholic church because most have a cursory understandimg of history sufficient to know that the middle ages were generally quite violent and repressive time to be a part of. Also its common knowledge that major religions were tied directly to the ruling classes. What do you think the crusades, the english civil war and the reformation were all about? We make distinctions about religions in the present day because we live in the present day and we have first hand knowledge.

Incidentally, what people rarely talk about is that the Islamic civilisation in Persia during the middle ages was culturally and intellectually significantly more developed than the kingdoms of europe.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You say so what? I think it gives us important insight into recruitment techniques, and that knowledge can be used for counter movements.

Le me ask this another way. Could ISIS have done this without religion? Let's say yes. But why did they choose to do it involving religion? Understanding that is central to this whole thing.

In these regions, politics and religion are not separate, and trying to separate them out in a western fashion leads to dead ends. A lot of this ISIS stuff is rooted in sunni/shia conflicts.

I don't think that changes the fact that there are millions or billions of muslims who are good people in the world, and I think that most people are able to separate the two.

I agree with you - its a mess of religion, politics and sectarian/tribal history.

[OnMyWayID 1,489]

Whats the deflection? I'm generally interested to know why people single out religion in relation to groups like this. Its certainly a key part of the ideology, but i think there's a tendency to focus on that to the exclusion of everything else.

I get how lonely desperate people can look for companionship in weird ways, but a cult that brainwashes people in sawing off someone's head with a knife!? I don't buy it, I think a person who does that would have started out insane or psychotic.

On religion - I think most people wouldn't argue that point about the Catholic church because most have a cursory understanding of history sufficient to know that the middle ages were generally quite violent and repressive time to be a part of. Also its common knowledge that major religions were tied directly to the ruling classes. What do you think the crusades, the English civil war and the reformation were all about? We make distinctions about religions in the present day because we live in the present day and we have first hand knowledge.

Incidentally, what people rarely talk about is that the Islamic civilization in Persia during the middle ages was culturally and intellectually significantly more developed than the kingdoms of Europe.

The UPS truck just arrived with my new arduino boards and sensor arrays.. Goose bumps! ISIS will have to wait.