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Ah... the trusty stereotype.

Hey dude, the people living in the region can't speak freely, didn't you know?

We have to invade their countries, give them freedom and democracy and then you'll hear their

opinions :whistle:

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Ah... the trusty stereotype.

Hey dude, the people living in the region can't speak freely, didn't you know?

We have to invade their countries, give them freedom and democracy and then you'll hear their

opinions :whistle:

I'm not sure that's necessarily true. While there is a broad deficit in democracy in the muslim world, not every muslim country is defined by the behaviour of the fundamentalists. The likes of Quatar and Malaysia for instance, have a rather more liberal outlook than Saudi Arabia or Iran - certainly with regards to womens rights.

When western-educated, secular people touting specifically western arguments are quoted as being a 'sensible muslim voice', it only highlights how misunderstood this area of the world is. There are progressive, liberal minded people in muslim countries - people that oppose the terrorists, yet have distinctive opinions that reflect their educational background and culture.

IMO a dialogue is needed to bridge the cultural and ideological divide, however this lady does not add anything significant to the debate.

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I would like to know of all the people who are here talking about muslims, how many have actually met one and how many have ever been to a muslim country?

Freedom is a beautiful word although much of it is an ideal or an illusion in the absolute, and not why this country went to war. European countries have been invaded and sacked by their neighbours thousand of times during the course of their history. Don't tell me you can invade a country and bring it freedom. Religion has killed thousand and thousand of people since the beginning of timie. God had nothing to do with this. Do me a favor, stop the non-sense.

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Ah... the trusty stereotype.

Hey dude, the people living in the region can't speak freely, didn't you know?

We have to invade their countries, give them freedom and democracy and then you'll hear their

opinions :whistle:

Military action is also working a treat! It is doing wonders to eradicate radical Islam from Iraq and Afghanistan. The Middle East dosn't know how to thank the Coalition Forces for flattening two countries. Oh and lets not forget the ever so elusive Osama, who is yet to be 'smoked out' of his cave in the desert. Thanks to our country's efforts over the past several decades, the Wwest has now considerably more enemies than it ever had, with more motivation and more capability to act.

Man we are awesome.

Sometimes I think I know everything, and I regain consciousness. Seen it all, done it all, forgot most of it....

So much plenitude, yet so much emptiness

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Filed: K-1 Visa Country: Algeria
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Hi all.

Being a muslim and since I have traveled to a couple muslim countries I can speak out somewhat here. I've seen both sides of the spectrum. Of course in any society there are your racists, they exist in America and they exist in the middle east as well. Here's some ideas from both sides.

Let's face it, most Americans get most of their worldly education from the mainstream news, CNN, NBC, Fox News. Of course these news stations for the most part only show the ills of society, rioting, accidents, war.. If that is one's only source of religious/worldly education, of course a lot of people are going to view Islam as a vile and nasty religion. A lot of people pass judgements on Islam without even studying the Qu'ran, or speaking to somebody who is muslim. Oftentimes since they already have seen the ills on TV, they would naturally be afraid to befriend a muslim. And again the racism becomes circular. But we have to face the facts, many Americans lump the middle east into one large "country" where everyone is the same and has similiar laws and policies. However that is not the case, Morocco is different from Egypt, and Egypt is different from Lebanon, and Lebanon is different from Saudi Arabia, and Saudi is different from Afghanistan.. etc. Many people believe, if there is war in Iraq or Afghanistan, there is war spreading out across the entire region.

On the other side, a lot of Anti-American sentiment is for purely political reasons. The fact is that America spills out millions of dollars every year to financially support the state of Israel, most of the money goes to their army and other military training. Palestinians have faced many hardships in the conflicts. They have been pushed off their land and forced into the West Bank or Gaza, have had tanks ran through their homes, have been denied many rights, and they have had their food/water/supplies cut off by Israel in some cases, most notably in the Gaza strip. They have seen the death of many of their people, and not just physical death, but a moral death. So, with America funding a lot of Israeli military, of course they are going to demonize America as well. If I have a friend and she wants to beat her husband with a stick, and I buy her the stick and encourage her, well in my friend's husband's eyes I am just as guilty. Anti-American sentiments have also spread through parts of southern lebanon. Of course because during the re-locations, many Palestinians have poured into surrounding countries. Israel did try to take parts of Lebanon as well, but the Hezbollah were able to push the Israelis away. So of course now Lebanon is Anti-Israel and Anti-America. Parts of their land were under Israeli occupation as well for short periods of time.

So In brief, if you were pushed off your land, had a tank ran through your home, and you were cut off from supplies, and your cousin or uncle or aunt or parents were killed, you would not only just hate the country that did this to you, you'd hate the country that enabled them to do so.

I have spoken with many families, muslim and non-muslim across the spectrum, and for the most part, a good portion of the Palestinian people want peace. But let's face it, I believe only a few leaders have been able to promote peace during times of oppression, Ghandi for one? Violence has been used more often than not in any kind of occupation. I knew a lebanese, not too long ago. He immigrated to America many years back. He had a cousin that worked for the lebanese media. He was murdered by Israeli forces moving into the area. And I have known a Jewish family that has had their son murdered in a suicide bombing in a restaurant. The fact of the matter is, is that the problems come from both sides. Things have become so circular in this area it is out of control.

Many suicide bombers claim they kill for a religious purpose, however Islam has well-defined laws of war and they do not include killing unsuspecting civilians. I do feel terribly hurt in my heart that people take religious texts and twist and define their meanings however they feel. But, I also believe that the occupation and the suffering that Palestinians suffer breed suicide bombers. These are young men who are unemployed, unable to provide for their families, unable to do a lot of things freely and they feel many frustrations. This breeds hate. They feel that if they kill, maybe the apartheid system of their people will cease. Of course that is not what happens, suicide bombings breed anti-islamic sentiment, and only further gives Israel reasons to further discriminate against Palestinians. This is terrible and it becomes more circular and only fuels more hate. I could never kill anything, not even a fly in the name of Islam, and neither could my fiancé.

Yet, at least for me living in America I've faced racism first hand. I've been called it all, Towel head, Muslim wh**e, c**t.

Unfortunately many Muslims have used Israel as an excuse to be anti-semetic. When they think of Jew, they think of Israel. This conflict has become very out of control and there are so many different opinions from different sides. There are American Jews who are zionist, Christian Americans who are Zionist, there are Jews in America who oppose zionist policies... etc etc etc. Personally I wish they could live happily side by side, Jews, Christians and Muslims in some kind of happy field frolicing love, but, I do realize that it would probably never happen. The only thing I can do is do my best to educate friends and family about the troubles that are faced there.

For these concepts as well, they are often the same in Iraq. All we hear about on TV is bombing. Believe me the Iraqi people have faced atrocities as well. A lot of Iraqis are happy Saddam is gone. I've personally known Iraqi's that were put in prison, terrorized, or corrupted by Saddam. However it is the insurgents and fundamentalists that pose problems in Iraq. Many people are stuck in a struggle. They love the fact that the U.S. has liberated them from the rule of this cruel being, but at the same time, it has cost them their family members lives. They are upset that American media gives 20 hours of coverage to one or two hostages, and then only gives 5 minutes of coverage to the fact that over 100,000 Iraqis were killed. Fundamentalists and insurgents pose problems. Unfortunately, it is the whackos that cause the suffering in these areas. Fundamentalists and suicide bombers do not walk around with b

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(Continued)

bombers do not walk around with badges or hats, they can look just like any normal civilian.

So we can see where there are problems. I also don't know if it is just me, but I feel offended by rch99's photos in his signature, more particularly the "Buy Danish" photo. Obviously he is supporting the cartoons depicting the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) with a bomb tied onto his head. Muslims of course believe this is wrong, because it is forbidden in Islam to draw (idolize) prophets. We should worship them including Jesus (pbuh) without worshiping a photograph of them. Any country can draw cartoons of Suicide bombers, Al-Qaeda, Osama bin Ladin, and nobody is going to think anything of it because they are a sick group of people. But please, just because somebody murders in the name of Islam, don't demonize the prophet.

Now as for my experiences in Muslim countries. The only two muslim countries I have been to are Algeria and Tunisia. I would like to visit Morocco someday if I have the chance. I would also like to visit the holyland, but considering that is it not safe to go there, I'm not going any time soon.

In both Algeria and Tunisia, I had wonderful experiences. The people were friendly and outgoing. And especially my family treated me very well. In speaking with my fiancé, he told me that there are a few cities in Algeria that have a well sized population of christians that are content and get along well with the majority of muslims that live around them. Many Algerians and Tunisians spoke with me about different thoughts and experiences about Islam and terrorism. Algeria, for many years, faced their own terrorism problems. People in Algeria before could not live freely, they constantly lived in fear. Women did not walk alone. Fundamentalist whackos murdered women who did not cover their hair. Homes were bombed. People were slaughtered. Many people only left home to do the neccesary. My fiancé has 4 sisters, and two of them showed me some pictures from the early 90's. They had their hair cut very short and I had asked why. They said that the stress from terrorism had caused their hair to fall out. They were also a lot thinner than they are now. Work was hard to come by and so was food. My fiancés family has also seen family members killed first-hand, including a cousin that was murdered by Al-Qaeda in Iraq. They were Algerian diplomats.

The news link is here : http://msnbc.msn.com/id/8712011/

And mind you, this is Algerians killing other Algerians. A vast majority of the terrorism has been eradicated. Algeria lives under democracy and peace now. Women can work, women can go about their daily business as normal. Women are not demonized for not covering up their heads. As for this point in time, Algeria is rebuilding what terrorism and natural disasters have destroyed. They are a developing state. They are much more open minded than those in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan.

I guess it's just time to face it that the world has lots of problems but education and understanding on all sides is the key to the beginning of the end of hate.

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Awesome post iceyspots.

Please, take this post, print it out, and send it to your local newspaper to print in the editorial section. Being near Detroit, I'm sure you need less Islam-awareness training than say, Des Moines or something, but all the same, it is the media that keeps this negative image alive, and it's the media that needs folks like you to step up and educate the average every day ignorant American.

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(Cont'd)

Yes, me and my fiancé are Muslim, and we're also extremely anti-terrorist. However, I've had people call me terrorist, or Al-Qaeda. It hits me very hard emotionally. There are many people across the world like us who have to suffer being demonized for the actions of others. Religion and Politics don't mix, and in the Middle East/North Africa, Afghanistan it is difficult to differentiate between the two.

Ok I'll step off my soap box now !

I'd be more interested to hear the opinions of someone actually living and working in the region.

Here they are.

VAH10902061422.jpg

060214protest.jpg

Ah... the trusty stereotype.

Yup, aod with those same pictures I could also post photos of tanks being rolled through Palestinian homes, or I can show pictures of 100,000 dead Iraqi's piled on top of eachother (even naked). Unfortunately there is a loss of connection to humanity that comes from both sides.

Awesome post iceyspots.

Please, take this post, print it out, and send it to your local newspaper to print in the editorial section. Being near Detroit, I'm sure you need less Islam-awareness training than say, Des Moines or something, but all the same, it is the media that keeps this negative image alive, and it's the media that needs folks like you to step up and educate the average every day ignorant American.

lol... thanks for your post. Detroit has the second largest muslim population after Los Angeles.. so I'm sure even though I face racism on some levels, there are people in other regions of America who have it much worse. There are so many other thoughts but I could go on for a while but it is my objective later on to make a much more elaborate, in depth piece.

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Much more elaborate???

Ha!

You did a great job here. I fear though it's going to fall on deaf ears. Folks here who don't know Muslims or have never been "over there" are not going to change their minds because "well, they said it on TV."

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Ensure your beneficiary makes and brings with them to the States a copy of the DS-3025 (vaccination form)

If the government is going to force me to exercise my "right" to health care, then they better start requiring people to exercise their Right to Bear Arms. - "Where's my public option rifle?"

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well BLEEP someone took the speakers off the pc here at work, guess I will watch this at home

:ranting:

Edited by rbhigday

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it's in ARABIC!!!

It has subtitles, so you don't need speakers. Read the words!!!! If you can't read the words, the transcript is in another post.

(Please disregard if you are fluent in Arabic.)

Русский форум член.

Ensure your beneficiary makes and brings with them to the States a copy of the DS-3025 (vaccination form)

If the government is going to force me to exercise my "right" to health care, then they better start requiring people to exercise their Right to Bear Arms. - "Where's my public option rifle?"

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Nice posts, Iceyspots ! :thumbs:

You are always welcome in the Holy Land. Please don't think you would be unsafe. You are an American citizen -- you can travel freely to just about any place there (if it's not an Israeli military or security facility.) All the holy sites are open to you. Yes, you have to use your head and of course stay away from obvious trouble, but American tourists are quite safe there. And you would really love the West Bank and its people. :yes:

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So we can see where there are problems. I also don't know if it is just me, but I feel offended by rch99's photos in his signature, more particularly the "Buy Danish" photo. Obviously he is supporting the cartoons depicting the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) with a bomb tied onto his head. Muslims of course believe this is wrong, because it is forbidden in Islam to draw (idolize) prophets. We should worship them including Jesus (pbuh) without worshiping a photograph of them.

Islamic rules, laws, and norms do not apply to non-muslims. For muslims to say "you cannot draw this picture because it offends me and my religion" infringes on one's right to freedom of expression. You do not have the right to be not offended.

Question: doesn't the shahadah say "there is none worthy of worship except Allah"? So why do you say you should worship the Prophet and Jesus?

Go check out these guys: The Big Pharaoh and The Sandmonkey. Lots of good information there, from moderate muslim Egyptians right there in Cairo.

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Here they are.

VAH10902061422.jpg

060214protest.jpg

Yup, aod with those same pictures I could also post photos of tanks being rolled through Palestinian homes, or I can show pictures of 100,000 dead Iraqi's piled on top of eachother (even naked). Unfortunately there is a loss of connection to humanity that comes from both sides.

However, those pictures are the response to cartoons. You know... something drawn on a piece of paper. How very sad.

"The fact that we are here today to debate raising America’s debt limit is a sign of leadership failure. It is a sign that the U.S. Government can’t pay its own bills. It is a sign that we now depend on ongoing financial assistance from foreign countries to finance our Government’s reckless fiscal policies."

Senator Barack Obama
Senate Floor Speech on Public Debt
March 16, 2006



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