Screw Democracy- Al-Qaeda- force captures Fallujah, raises Flag, stakes claim.

[Pooky 3,370]

So, you'd rather place the blame on then Senator Biden, rather than the Commander in Chief at the time?

It's called spreading the lurve.

The only innocents her are those members of Congress who voted against the initial action in Iraq.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Then explain Tony Blair's rush to join in.

I was talking about Americans who supported Bush in the decision to invade. I lived in the US when that was happening and there was far less criticism of it in the media and among the general public than there was in the UK. I think you'll be hard pressed to find many Britons who supported Blair on Iraq.

No ..enough blame for all, but to insist that it was a totally right wing Republican operation is a Lie.

Hillary voted for it as did Kerry.

Not what was said. The lack of criticism of it though had a lot to do with nationalist sentiments.

[luckytxn 2,264]

Yes. Actually there was. Many spoke up and were called vile stuff. Your memory must be short. Both Gulf wars were shoved down our throats. Both bad decisions.

There didn't seem to be a shortage of people insisting that he do so.

[Penguin_ie 5,987]

**** one post removed for TOS violations (personal attack, advocating violence) and two quoting also removed *****

[Pooky 3,370]

Not what was said. The lack of criticism of it though had a lot to do with nationalist sentiments.

The comment is directed at the "far right" part of your original post, which evidently had no bearing on the issue, given the widespread Democrat support for the policy at the outset.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Nationalist sentiments are by definition right wing. One does not need to be a conservative to fall prey to them. That's just how the American media likes to present things.

[Pooky 3,370]

Nationalist sentiments are by definition right wing.

Show me such a definition.

Then explain how Hugo Chavez could possibly have been a nationalist and a socialist, as represented here: http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2013/03/08/pers-m08.html

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

You need to get off this idea that any criticism of right or left is a criticism of political parties. A person can be registered with one party or another and still have right or left wing views on different issues. The support for the Iraq war among the general public was very definitely rooted in post 9/11 nationalism. If you're confused because Hillary and that bunch voted for it, you shouldn't be. They went with it because it was the popular view.

It was the same in the UK, the only MPs who opposed Blair were quickly marginalised and cut out of the cabinet. It wasn't anyone's finest hour.

I remember there was next to no criticism of the president in the mainstream of the US media in the run up to the Iraq war. There was in the UK, over a million people marched through central London in protest.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Yes. Actually there was. Many spoke up and were called vile stuff.

Exactly. All the arguments that are made in terms of who in Congress voted for or against the war, do no mask the fact that the then Commander-in-Chief and his administration blatantly lied to the American people about Saddam's supposed support for Al-Qaeda. He made statements fostering that belief which he knew to be questionable at best. Statements like this:

"We've learned that Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases." - George W. Bush in Cincinnati, October 2002

https://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/11/adminstmts.CBW.110605.pdf

And there were more such false statements made by the President and his team to the American people resulting in just about as many Americans thinking that Saddam was involved with 9/11 as there were Americans supporting the impending US invasion into Iraq. The only reason for that public support was the successful sale of the falsehood that Saddam and 9/11 were somehow linked. They weren't. But the stupid 2/3 of the country fell for that nonsense anyways. And politicians in Congress - as they always do looking at polls - pulled along because of that very public sentiment that was carefully built by the administration with lies, lies and more lies. That's what happened. I remember it very well. And you apparently remember it, too.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Exactly. All the arguments that are made in terms of who in Congress voted for or against the war, do no mask the fact that the then Commander-in-Chief and his administration blatantly lied to the American people about Saddam's supposed support for Al-Qaeda. He made statements fostering that belief which he knew to be questionable at best. Statements like this:

"We've learned that Iraq has trained al Qaeda members in bomb-making and poisons and deadly gases." - George W. Bush in Cincinnati, October 2002

https://www.fas.org/irp/news/2005/11/adminstmts.CBW.110605.pdf

And there were more such false statements made by the President and his team to the American people resulting in just about as many Americans thinking that Saddam was involved with 9/11 as there were Americans supporting the impending US invasion into Iraq. The only reason for that public support was the successful sale of the falsehood that Saddam and 9/11 were somehow linked. They weren't. But the stupid 2/3 of the country fell for that nonsense anyways. And politicians in Congress - as they always do looking at polls - pulled along because of that very public sentiment that was carefully built by the administration with lies, lies and more lies. That's what happened. I remember it very well. And you apparently remember it, too.

True that. And the posts from back then are still there.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The lies were on both sides of the Atlantic. The Blair government cooked up PR dossiers based on intelligence that sounded good but which intelligence leaders had the least confidence in. The BBC exposed it and we're crucified in one of the shameful put downs of the news media at least as far back as I remember.

It would have been equivalent to Nixon shutting down the Watergate story. Utterly shameful.

[Pooky 3,370]

You need to get off this idea that any criticism of right or left is a criticism of political parties.

So, you can find no definition of nationalism that states that it is a right-wing ideology. Could that be because it has nothing to do with "right" or "left" at all?

I really couldn't care less about political parties, in this country, or the UK. I voted Conservative and Labour in my time, depending on how much of the respective candidates' platforms I agreed with. The same would apply here, if there was a candidate who could put together a sane enough platform.

Unfortunately, the chances of either party letting that happen right now are somewhat remote.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I don't know how long you've lived in the US but the political climate in the years after 9/11 was very different to what it is now. Back then it was common (even on here as late as 2007/2008) for people to refer to those who opposed the war in Iraq as 'UnAmerican' or 'Traitor'. That's not an exaggeration - that's literally what was said. Where do you think a sentiment comes from - where on the political spectrum? How about those restaurants that changed the name of French Toast and French Fries in protest at the French refusing to support the Bush administration? A silly example perhaps, but again why would someone do this - what's the thinking there?

I'm not talking about politicians here - I'm talking about the general voting public. I don't believe the Bush administration was driven to war by 'far right' politics, I believe they went into Iraq partly for geopolitical reasons by also to make money for various corporate business interests. I believe that they justified what they were doing by appealing to patriotic and nationalist sentiment in the wake of 9/11 and that many people were both scared and angry enough to buy into it.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

Nationalist sentiments are by definition right wing. One does not need to be a conservative to fall prey to them. That's just how the American media likes to present things.

Congrats.. Most bizarre and untrue statement of the quarter.

You must have missed the rise and fall of Socialism, communism etc in the 20th centruy

Edited January 5, 2014 by The conciliator

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]