THIS is how you reform immigration

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

So, your preferred solution involves an exponential growth in the associated bureaucracy. Have you seen what they're not doing with what they have?

The level of non-enforcement, because of "insufficient resources", commonly known as political direction, is breathtaking now. Just imagine which of the new laws the federal government can choose not to enforce with twice the manpower - and five times the regulation?

This comprehensive immigration reform bill, which the "Gang of Eight" don't have the integrity to call Amnesty, will be 1986 all over again. The amnesty part will take effect, but the border security and other"protection" written into the bill will fade away to nothing and the next bill will be looking to sort out the next wave of 25 million illegal immigrants.

Everyone thinks Reagan went soft, when in reality he and the American people were sold out by Congress and the Senate. Same old same old.

Well said..

[Dieseltu 19]

Illegal immigrants are not a burden on the economy. Only a burden on tax dollars. Making them legal will solve the latter. Your solution will likely hurt the economy more than assist it.

They are a burden on the economy and families of America,

Illegals kill over 4000 Americans a year. Primarily by driving without a license and insurance. And robbery.

Furthermore the governments own websites state illegals cost 2 million jobs a year.

And there's going to be plenty of millions more coming.

They should be shot on sight.

[Dieseltu 19]

The truth sounds good on my ears. Amen Brother. Tell it... Attack the people hiring illegals had and fast. No jobs, no illegals no need for militarized borders.

On one point I will disagree. In my last job I had several illegals working in the plant.. They worked rings around the locals. They were paid the same crappy wages.

The problem is that even if you stop them from working . They stay with their extended relatives here in th states, and collect welfare.

So if you stop their jobs. And stop illegals collection welfare.

And stop the Democraps from letting them vote

And stop them from killing Americans and going back across the border

Then you got something

Furthermore. The majority of the United States citizens think the borders should be closed.

And rightly so.

Its the government creating this problem by refusing to honor its Constitutional duty to protect citizens . From illegal invaders.

And refusing to allow Americans to protect themselves.

[SaharaSunset 165]

... if it is already happening, why are we wasting our time and resources fighting it, when it doesn't really affect the rest of us to begin with? Once those jobs that are open are swallowed up, they will stop coming. Simple as that.

The only thing that it does affect us in a way is the government assistance they get from our tax dollars, such as schooling, without paying into the system via taxation themselves. The simple solution then is to legalize them and tax them of course. And of course reform the welfare system so they don't become lenient on it and become a public cost, but that is a problem that should be dealt with anyways as many Americans exploit that as well.

The way I see it, we can either spend millions fighting something that is going to occur either way or we can allow it and work with it so it works to an advantage for us. Gating ourselves in will only lead to our decay in a world-connected economy.

Your logic is hilarious! "Why waste time on something that is already happening???" Well by your logic, we should throw out prisons too right? I mean bad people are gonna do bad things, so why waste time trying to catch them and lock them up. Eventually they'll just kill everyone and then kill eachother and then we'll be extinct. Simple as that. I mean why fight something that's already happening?

And I love how you throw in "And of course reform the welfare system" - HA!! How about we tackle that beast first before we open the door to millions who will tap into it the second they get the chance...that is if they haven't already through stolen social security numbers etc. You're living in a dream world if you think that the massive sums of money that are shelled out to people on the doll doesn't impact our economy. And the paltry tax revenue from people earning less than minimum wage will not compensate for the the money tax money spent covering their welfare check. Or maybe they'll figure out what so many Americans have - feign "disability" or unemployment and earn a much better, "free" paycheck than you could ever rake in working for minimum wage....then we'll get no tax revenue from them anyway, and we'll just get to pay for their new "legal" life here. Super fun. Oh and I consider the 30+ percent of my paycheck that goes to taxes(which of course also pays for welfare) a pretty significant impact on my economy....

I think the OP is right. Shut down the businesses who employ illegals. Brilliant. Problem solved. No need to spend millions deporting people, they'll go home on their own when suddenly they can;t find work. And then illegal immigration will stop. Simple as that. Then work on streamlining the processing of legal immigration.

And then, heaven forbid, those self-serving illegal employers might actually have to pay people a fair wage for their work. And spare me the line about "no one will do those jobs" I don't believe for one second that Americans are too lazy to "do the jobs no one else wants." Garbage men deal with trash all day long - who wants that job????!!! Oh, maybe someone who want to get paid $80,000 a year. Not to shabby. And you can't tell me that's a job anyone wants. Pay farm workers even just $15 an hour, and you'll have people fighting for that job....legal American citizens and residents are not to lazy to work when they are paid a fair a reasonable wage.

Edited June 23, 2013 by SaharaSunset

[Boiler 43,736]

Many sectors have been able to take advantage of cheaper labour offshore, but there also sectors where that is simply not possible. Restaurants and Hotels for example need on site cheap and dedicated staff. They can not outsource.

Looks like those here sans documentation will have a cost advantage, they do not qualify for Obamacare so will be les expensive to employ but there is still a disconnect between the demand for low cost labour in the US and the supply.

If immigrant labour was not subject to minimum wage and hours limitations then those Companies who are willing to operate inside the US could compete more evenly.

[Bugs 455]

So, your preferred solution involves an exponential growth in the associated bureaucracy. Have you seen what they're not doing with what they have?

The level of non-enforcement, because of "insufficient resources", commonly known as political direction, is breathtaking now. Just imagine which of the new laws the federal government can choose not to enforce with twice the manpower - and five times the regulation?

This comprehensive immigration reform bill, which the "Gang of Eight" don't have the integrity to call Amnesty, will be 1986 all over again. The amnesty part will take effect, but the border security and other"protection" written into the bill will fade away to nothing and the next bill will be looking to sort out the next wave of 25 million illegal immigrants.

Everyone thinks Reagan went soft, when in reality he and the American people were sold out by Congress and the Senate. Same old same old.

Who said anything about added bureaucracy? I didn't. You realize that welfare reform could result in less government assistance, right?

They are a burden on the economy and families of America,

Illegals kill over 4000 Americans a year. Primarily by driving without a license and insurance. And robbery.

Furthermore the governments own websites state illegals cost 2 million jobs a year.

And there's going to be plenty of millions more coming.

They should be shot on sight.

Legals kill more. And no, I'm not in favor of shooting anybody on sight.

[Bugs 455]

Your logic is hilarious! "Why waste time on something that is already happening???" Well by your logic, we should throw out prisons too right? I mean bad people are gonna do bad things, so why waste time trying to catch them and lock them up. Eventually they'll just kill everyone and then kill eachother and then we'll be extinct. Simple as that. I mean why fight something that's already happening?

And I love how you throw in "And of course reform the welfare system" - HA!! How about we tackle that beast first before we open the door to millions who will tap into it the second they get the chance...that is if they haven't already through stolen social security numbers etc. You're living in a dream world if you think that the massive sums of money that are shelled out to people on the doll doesn't impact our economy. And the paltry tax revenue from people earning less than minimum wage will not compensate for the the money tax money spent covering their welfare check. Or maybe they'll figure out what so many Americans have - feign "disability" or unemployment and earn a much better, "free" paycheck than you could ever rake in working for minimum wage....then we'll get no tax revenue from them anyway, and we'll just get to pay for their new "legal" life here. Super fun. Oh and I consider the 30+ percent of my paycheck that goes to taxes(which of course also pays for welfare) a pretty significant impact on my economy....

I think the OP is right. Shut down the businesses who employ illegals. Brilliant. Problem solved. No need to spend millions deporting people, they'll go home on their own when suddenly they can;t find work. And then illegal immigration will stop. Simple as that. Then work on streamlining the processing of legal immigration.

And then, heaven forbid, those self-serving illegal employers might actually have to pay people a fair wage for their work. And spare me the line about "no one will do those jobs" I don't believe for one second that Americans are too lazy to "do the jobs no one else wants." Garbage men deal with trash all day long - who wants that job????!!! Oh, maybe someone who want to get paid $80,000 a year. Not to shabby. And you can't tell me that's a job anyone wants. Pay farm workers even just $15 an hour, and you'll have people fighting for that job....legal American citizens and residents are not to lazy to work when they are paid a fair a reasonable wage.

No, allowing immigrants to cross the border to find work is not the same as allowing murders to occur. I'm sorry if you fail to see the difference.

And when I say that welfare reform is necessary to the relaxing of immigration restriction, I mean pretty much exactly what you are saying: it needs to be in place when such immigration policy is in effect. So, yes, before.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Leon & Mylen

[Bugs 455]

I think I'll just bow out of this debate. To try and reason against paranoia is a lost cause. Just look at Germany in the 1930's.

[The Nature Boy 4,224]

I think I'll just bow out of this debate. To try and reason against paranoia is a lost cause. Just look at Germany in the 1930's.

Some of what you saw was a bit out there, however I don't think anyone that advocates completely opening the borders is going to be taken seriously. That is just such a wretched idea, that most anyone with any critical thinking ability, knows would destroy this nation.

I think that may be the issue, you started with an indefensible position.

Would you take the door off your home and put a sign out that said, Welcome all, come and feel free to stay ? Your home would be trashed and worthless in no time.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Illegal immigrants are not a burden on the economy. Only a burden on tax dollars. Making them legal will solve the latter. Your solution will likely hurt the economy more than assist it.

OK

So how do Social Security, Medicare, workman's comp, paid vacations, wage/hour protections, safety practices and the minimum wage hurt the economy?

What I am suggesting is that we SLAM employers that do not provide the required worker protections and benefits and wage/hour requirements that we have fought for over the years. Suddenly you are OK with people being exploited for profit and say it is harmful to the economy to make employers comply with employment law?

Look this is simple math.

You are a roofing company and you hire illegal Mexican aliens not because they are the best roofers or because you want language barriers on your job sites...but because they are 60% cheaper than LEGAL workers since you are not paying workman's comp, payroll tax (FICA, Medicare, FUI, SUI) and benefits. For that amount of savings you put up with language issues and for work quailty they are good. Not any better than LEGAL Mexicans, but lots cheaper.

Tomorrow they all come to work cheering. YAY! What? "Obama has made us legal! Now you have to pay us more and pay our benefits and we get safety harnesses to work on the roof" YAY!

"Sorry, no. You are fired. GTFO! I will hire a new crew of ILLEGALS to work for the same amount you used to work for"

Seriously, can you even think to expect employers that have broken the law to save money will suddenly NOW comply with labor laws because you made 11 million more illegals..legal? What was wrong with the millions of LEGAL Mexican roofers already here? Did they forget how to nail shingles?

Any form of amnesty is simply a conscription of new illegals to replace the ones that suddenly became 60% more expensive to employ.

Border security will not matter. Unless you remove the economic incentive to come here and the economic incentive to employ illegals, the problem will continue. We seem to be able to figure this out for every other form of behavior modification the government wants...and get a brain fart when it comes to illegals. Ridiculous.

I think I'll just bow out of this debate. To try and reason against paranoia is a lost cause. Just look at Germany in the 1930's.

Bye

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I think the OP is right. Shut down the businesses who employ illegals. Brilliant. Problem solved. No need to spend millions deporting people, they'll go home on their own when suddenly they can;t find work. And then illegal immigration will stop. Simple as that. Then work on streamlining the processing of legal immigration.

And then, heaven forbid, those self-serving illegal employers might actually have to pay people a fair wage for their work. And spare me the line about "no one will do those jobs" I don't believe for one second that Americans are too lazy to "do the jobs no one else wants." Garbage men deal with trash all day long - who wants that job????!!! Oh, maybe someone who want to get paid $80,000 a year. Not to shabby. And you can't tell me that's a job anyone wants. Pay farm workers even just $15 an hour, and you'll have people fighting for that job....legal American citizens and residents are not to lazy to work when they are paid a fair a reasonable wage.

Exactly. The rest is BS.

The biggest BS is the line about Americans not doing the work. Why aren't legal immigrants doing it either?????????? Americans and legal residents WILL do the work when they are paid a proper wage and get proper benefits the way the LAW requires.

Punish employers that do not comply with our laws and exploit humans for profit. we passed the laws to rpotect workers, then lets protect workers! SLAM the door shut on employers that do not comply. This nonsense will stop and our border people can concentrate on catching BAD GUYS that are getting through because they are chasing too many roofers and lettuce pickers.

[Boiler 43,736]

Nobody is suggesting I think that Employers who move jobs overseas should comply with US workplace laws.

You are just wanting to penalise those Employers who do not have that opportunity.

I have read about cases where people working illegally in the US have gone through the waiver process and the immigration process following marriage and then have a hard time finding work. They thought it would be easier...

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Some of what you saw was a bit out there, however I don't think anyone that advocates completely opening the borders is going to be taken seriously. That is just such a wretched idea, that most anyone with any critical thinking ability, knows would destroy this nation.

It would indeed. Open the borders today and you would flood this market with cheap non American labor thus displacing more expensive American labor at a much broader scale than is the case today. It would not merely be agricultural, hospitality, horticultural, janitorial and construction labor that displaces Americans. It would be virtually all sectors of the economy short of a few very specialized areas. With the pressures of a sudden oversupply of labor across virtually the entire economy, the market would dictate that wages and salaries take a nosedive. Businesses that try to continue to produce goods and services with more expensive American labor will soon find themselves unable to compete and will make room for those businesses producing similar goods and services with cheaper non-American labor. More good salaries jobs gone down the drain.

What will it look like? Those making $50K plus benefits today will find themselves having to settle for $30K without benefits. Those making $100K today will find themselves at $60K and so on and so forth. This includes the open border advocates that better be ready to tighten their belts. Sure, prices of goods and services may come down some as a result as well. Unless, of course, the saved labor cost goes straight back into corporate profits. That would not only not be surprising but a reasonable expectation seeing where the relative decrease in labor cost - aka as productivity gains - have gone over the last several decades.

Not a pretty picture. Plus, if these borders are open to anyone that can make their way here, then all borders of the sender countries must be open to Americans as well so that those that are here now are free to leave and find their fortunes elsewhere. That's not going to happen, of course, and there goes the whole idea. This would soon be a nation more like our neighbors to the south than our peers to the north and east of the Atlantic.