Religion is evil

[Jenn! 918]

Does your religious faith teach you it is right and just to mistreat or murder me for holding an opinion different from yours?

If the answer is yes, I think you have proven that religion is evil without any outside help.

If the answer is "no", then on to the friendly discussion...

What do you mean by "mistreat"? I can feel mistreated even if you had no intentions to mistreat me.

For example, I do not like being told that I lack morals because I prescribe to no organized religion. That makes me feel mistreated. But certain religious people like to throw that around it seems to me...

No obscure meaning intended.

Mistreat Verb. to treat baddy. Synonyms: maltreat, abuse, insult.

I personally would categorize a religious person telling me I lack morals under 'insult'.

This causes me to be confused by your confusion. Did the people in question try to convince you that no mistreatment was intended as it was a friendly, benevolent and kind insult to your character they were throwing?

To be honest, I don't understand the intentions of religious people who accuse non-religious people of being immoral. It is usually said matter-of-factly, as neither an insult nor a kind gesture, but I receive it as an insult.

My point is that I feel many religions do not encourage tolerance of other opinions. Although that in itself is not "mistreatment" and certainly doesn't encourage murder, I think it does contribute to non-religious people's negative views towards religion. And while I wouldn't equate being judgmental with being evil, I can see why some people do come to that conclusion.

[Saddle Bronc 124]

A point to ponder. Since Dawkins defends a "darwinian" doctrine so much, Darwinism could easily be considered AS a religion (with Dawkins as one of its extremists/fundamentalists). Apparently, this has not crossed Dawkins' mind anytime.

[Karen_L 1]

Traditional "proofs" of God's Existence

...

Søren Kierkegaard

Søren Kierkegaard (1813-1855) agreed with Kant that the existence of God could not be proven by reason. However Kierkegaard did not think that it was rational to believe in God, rather one should have faith in God even if this seems to reason to be absurd. To put it another way reason has no place in faith. God is beyond reason.

...

http://www.philosopher.org.uk/god.htm

A friendly discussion about religion! How interesting.

A quick question to all discussion partners first:

Does your religious faith teach you it is right and just to mistreat or murder me for holding an opinion different from yours?

If the answer is yes, I think you have proven that religion is evil without any outside help.

If the answer is "no", then on to the friendly discussion...

One of the most persistent issues concerning belief in God is the problem of evil. A reasoned, rational and irrefutable statement of this difficulty was made by the Greek philosopher Epicurus some 2300 years ago, thus predating every modern religion practiced by man.

The Epicurean paradox (or the riddle of Epicurus)

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?

Several medieval philosophers (mostly Christian, but I believe also some Muslim) have suggested that there is no such thing as Evil, really, since, if God is completely good and God created everything, it stands to reason that God cannot create that which is not good. Thus, "evil" or badness is a lessening of Good. The Good is lessened the further the soul distances from God (or Goodness); they maintain that the soul in and of itself is pure goodness, but its distance from God in a physical body and its contact with the physical world is what lessens that Goodness.

I'm paraphrasing, of course, but I believe that was the position of Augustine and Plotinus, among others. Certain medieval groups took this to the extreme and in an attempt to ward off the evil of the physical world and the needs of that physical body, would refrain from eating for long long periods of time, or had assistants take the first bite of something to "release the evil" from it.

But really, even if we cannot know everything about God, etc that doesn't mean God doesn't exist; it just means that there are things we don't know. There's so much science can't explain either.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Traditional "proofs" of God's Existence

...

Søren Kierkegaard

Søren Kierkegaard (1813-1855) agreed with Kant that the existence of God could not be proven by reason. However Kierkegaard did not think that it was rational to believe in God, rather one should have faith in God even if this seems to reason to be absurd. To put it another way reason has no place in faith. God is beyond reason.

...

http://www.philosopher.org.uk/god.htm

A friendly discussion about religion! How interesting.

A quick question to all discussion partners first:

Does your religious faith teach you it is right and just to mistreat or murder me for holding an opinion different from yours?

If the answer is yes, I think you have proven that religion is evil without any outside help.

If the answer is "no", then on to the friendly discussion...

One of the most persistent issues concerning belief in God is the problem of evil. A reasoned, rational and irrefutable statement of this difficulty was made by the Greek philosopher Epicurus some 2300 years ago, thus predating every modern religion practiced by man.

The Epicurean paradox (or the riddle of Epicurus)

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?

Well, as Nietzche and many of his contemporaries realized is that all things such as the concept of good and evil exist only in human logic. That isn't to say there is no truth behind what we understand as good or evil, but when we use logic to try to rationalize or irrationalize God's existence, we are going down a path of futility...which is what Nietzche meant when he said that God is dead. God (the infinite) is beyond human thought and logic (finite). That is where religion comes into play. Religion, in my opinion should be about human beings grappling with that perpetual disconnect between the infinite and the finite. We can never fully understand or rationalize, but we can and do experience the infinite...which is how we come to know God.

A point to ponder. Since Dawkins defends a "darwinian" doctrine so much, Darwinism could easily be considered AS a religion (with Dawkins as one of its extremists/fundamentalists). Apparently, this has not crossed Dawkins' mind anytime.

I agree. Just putting ones entire faith that human thought and logic are perfect (infinitely capable) is a religion in of itself. Atheism is a form of religion whether one wants to admit to it or not - it is based on certain presumptions just as all religions.

Edited October 18, 2006 by Steven_and_Jinky

[mrsushi66 0]

Well, as Nietzche and many of his contemporaries realized is that all things such as the concept of good and evil exist only in human logic. That isn't to say there is no truth behind what we understand as good or evil, but when we use logic to try to rationalize or irrationalize God's existence, we are going down a path of futility...which is what Nietzche meant when he said that God is dead. God (the infinite) is beyond human thought and logic (finite). That is where religion comes into play. Religion, in my opinion should be about human beings grappling with that perpetual disconnect between the infinite and the finite. We can never fully understand or rationalize, but we can and do experience the infinite...which is how we come to know God.

I have not studied philosophy so if this is a stupid question I apologize but if Nietzche believed human thought and logic were finite how could people continually use thsi finite resource to go from caves to houses to space to who knows where next? What I am trying to ask is, if things exist today that no one even thought could exist 100 years ago how can it be that this resource is finite?

[heishe 2]

The cool thing about Darwinism is that there's actually evidence for it! Best religion ever!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Well, as Nietzche and many of his contemporaries realized is that all things such as the concept of good and evil exist only in human logic. That isn't to say there is no truth behind what we understand as good or evil, but when we use logic to try to rationalize or irrationalize God's existence, we are going down a path of futility...which is what Nietzche meant when he said that God is dead. God (the infinite) is beyond human thought and logic (finite). That is where religion comes into play. Religion, in my opinion should be about human beings grappling with that perpetual disconnect between the infinite and the finite. We can never fully understand or rationalize, but we can and do experience the infinite...which is how we come to know God.

I have not studied philosophy so if this is a stupid question I apologize but if Nietzche believed human thought and logic were finite how could people continually use thsi finite resource to go from caves to houses to space to who knows where next? What I am trying to ask is, if things exist today that no one even thought could exist 100 years ago how can it be that this resource is finite?

Finite means that it is limited in its capacity to explain or understand all things. For example, even scientist's have concluded that science can only take us so far in our understanding of the physical world. Quantum physics is just one field where science has reached it's limits, and it's not just a limit, but also we are aware of the imperfections of our logic (Wittgenstein).

[mrsushi66 0]

Finite means that it is limited in its capacity to explain or understand all things. For example, even scientist's have concluded that science can only take us so far in our understanding of the physical world. Quantum physics is just one field where science has reached it's limits, and it's not just a limit, but also we are aware of the imperfections of our logic (Wittgenstein).

I know what finite means but how can something be finite when it is contantly changing and moving forward. In other words Quantum physics didnt exist until someone made a discovery and someone else built upon it. We can say we have reached our limits but history has proven that this is not the case.

[Mirorgate 0]

I'd like to know what specific falsehoods he speaking about, because at least my understanding of my religion, it doesn't give answers to the physical world nor should it. Religion is about embracing the mystery and finding Truth that is beyond our comprehension. To put your entire faith in the human mind IS a religion in of itself...and a very short-sighted one at that.

agree... Faith is more than just about religion, or the lack thereof also.

Traditional "proofs" of God's Existence

...

Søren Kierkegaard

Søren Kierkegaard (1813-1855) agreed with Kant that the existence of God could not be proven by reason. However Kierkegaard did not think that it was rational to believe in God, rather one should have faith in God even if this seems to reason to be absurd. To put it another way reason has no place in faith. God is beyond reason.

...

http://www.philosopher.org.uk/god.htm

A friendly discussion about religion! How interesting.

A quick question to all discussion partners first:

Does your religious faith teach you it is right and just to mistreat or murder me for holding an opinion different from yours?

If the answer is yes, I think you have proven that religion is evil without any outside help.

If the answer is "no", then on to the friendly discussion...

One of the most persistent issues concerning belief in God is the problem of evil. A reasoned, rational and irrefutable statement of this difficulty was made by the Greek philosopher Epicurus some 2300 years ago, thus predating every modern religion practiced by man.

The Epicurean paradox (or the riddle of Epicurus)

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?

Then he is not omnipotent.

Is he able, but not willing?

Then he is malevolent.

Is he both able and willing?

Then whence cometh evil?

Is he neither able nor willing?

Then why call him God?

the Jewish faith is a bit older than just 2300 yrs old, and a lot of its traditions are still in place. Epicurus also discounted that one little piece called freedom of choice. frex: are your parents omnipotent to stop you from doing what you want? are they not willing? are they still not your parents, though able and willing to stop the bad in your life... yet let it happen anyways because you grow to adult and can make your own decisions, and they realise that part of that is owning up to the consequences of such decisions... are they not still your parents and still want the best for you?

btw... "you" is used here in generic form .. meaning anyone and everyone.

[Alex+R 0]

I was really hoping this thread would be more controversial. I'm pretty bored over here.

[LaL 418]

I am such a fan of Richard Dawkins. The selfish gene is just an awesome read. love love love it.

[Jenn! 918]

I was really hoping this thread would be more controversial. I'm pretty bored over here.

Seriously. I don't think I could think of a more provocative topic title in a million years!

[Asha+Joy=Love 0]

Well, as Nietzche and many of his contemporaries realized is that all things such as the concept of good and evil exist only in human logic. That isn't to say there is no truth behind what we understand as good or evil, but when we use logic to try to rationalize or irrationalize God's existence, we are going down a path of futility...which is what Nietzche meant when he said that God is dead. God (the infinite) is beyond human thought and logic (finite). That is where religion comes into play. Religion, in my opinion should be about human beings grappling with that perpetual disconnect between the infinite and the finite. We can never fully understand or rationalize, but we can and do experience the infinite...which is how we come to know God.

Nietzche was an interesting thinker. It’s so sad how he spend his last 10 years completely insane. I’d like to know more about his life. Steven, can you recommend a good biography?

I have not studied philosophy so if this is a stupid question I apologize but if Nietzche believed human thought and logic were finite how could people continually use thsi finite resource to go from caves to houses to space to who knows where next? What I am trying to ask is, if things exist today that no one even thought could exist 100 years ago how can it be that this resource is finite?

…

I know what finite means but how can something be finite when it is contantly changing and moving forward. In other words Quantum physics didnt exist until someone made a discovery and someone else built upon it. We can say we have reached our limits but history has proven that this is not the case.

Far from being a stupid question, I think you have a rather good criticism of that definition of human thought. I have always been of the opinion that what humans can imagine they can achieve, same justification: historic precedent.

the Jewish faith is a bit older than just 2300 yrs old, and a lot of its traditions are still in place. Epicurus also discounted that one little piece called freedom of choice. frex: are your parents omnipotent to stop you from doing what you want? are they not willing? are they still not your parents, though able and willing to stop the bad in your life... yet let it happen anyways because you grow to adult and can make your own decisions, and they realise that part of that is owning up to the consequences of such decisions... are they not still your parents and still want the best for you?

btw... "you" is used here in generic form .. meaning anyone and everyone.

Absolutely, as much as 1,000 years older. So is Hinduism, etc... I definitely should have put an "as" in front of "practiced", my bad.

I’m not aware that Epicurus ever discounted free will. He advocated making decisions that would result in happiness rather than pain.

Omnipotence is not a quality attributed to parents… but, um... what you are saying is that parents are still parents even if they don’t have the qualities of parents? Like biological parents being parents even if they have never met their child? Valid point. But they would not then have much relevance in the child’s life. Epicurus did not deny the existence of the gods, he rather maintained that they did not necessarily have the qualities attributed to them and could often be regarded as irrelevant to the life of humans.

I was really hoping this thread would be more controversial. I'm pretty bored over here.

Yeah, nothing works like polite discussion to kill the potentially entertaining cat fights.

Edited October 18, 2006 by Asha+JoyEqualsLove

[sharky 2]

The guy may be educated and smart when it comes to biology but he is still an idiot. Science and the belief in God are not mutually exclusive. I believe in God. I believe that he created everything. But I also believe that he did it by creating physics and the rules of the universe with the knowledge of how it would come out. This yahoo is entitled to his beliefs but to call religion evil is way out of line. He seems to think he is the smartest person in the room but IMO he is the dumbest.

I think If you and Richard Dawkins were in the same room, I know who I would think was the dumbest! Richard Dawkins is a great and very intelligent Biologist, he puts forward very interesting views and backs them up with FACTS....

all you have done is just spouted your releigious beleifs and called him an idiot..........

very convincing!!

[Alex+R 0]

The guy may be educated and smart when it comes to biology but he is still an idiot. Science and the belief in God are not mutually exclusive. I believe in God. I believe that he created everything. But I also believe that he did it by creating physics and the rules of the universe with the knowledge of how it would come out. This yahoo is entitled to his beliefs but to call religion evil is way out of line. He seems to think he is the smartest person in the room but IMO he is the dumbest.

I think If you and Richard Dawkins were in the same room, I know who I would think was the dumbest! Richard Dawkins is a great and very intelligent Biologist, he puts forward very interesting views and backs them up with FACTS....

all you have done is just spouted your releigious beleifs and called him an idiot..........

very convincing!!

Now there's the rancor this thread was lacking...