People protesting the mosque near ground zero verbally attack two Egyptian men.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Building mosques at or near the sites of Kufr monuments destroyed by the mujahideen is a long standing and proud Muslim tradition.

Yea, its a long standing Christian tradition, too. In fact, its a tactic for missionaries to be sent in first to lower the resistance of conquered people. Bush did that in Iraq.

[Heracles 417]

Sorry, I see all the hoopla as manipulative, over emotional hype from a bunch who profited from the deaths of their family members and then, demanded more. So, now their back with their entitlement attitudes, expecting that they should have domain over even the area nnot inside of groud zero. I have no empathy for them or their supporters. They can be offended all they want. It doesn't amount to a hill of beans to me.

So you would have no problem with me building a range of religious buildings at Mecca?

Correction as you will say no. 'would Muslims'

Edited June 10, 2010 by Booyah!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

That is also true. Iraq proved that the real terrorists don't give a ####### about who they target. Thousands of woman and children were killed because of so-called Islam followers. Though off topic, what gets me there is that many still blame America for this. Another example, America is still to blame for anything Iran does, apparently because of the CIA and a coup in the past.

Provocative is the key word. Build it a few blocks away and all is well.

It's not provacative unless you consider Muslims to be intruders on what you see as non-Muslim property. It's not. It's commerce.

So you would have no problem with me building a range of religious buildings at Mecca?

Correction as you will say no. 'would Muslims'

You can build them when I can build masjids in Vatican City.

What a red herring.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Sofiyya

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Muslims who were minding their own business at work died there too. The ones who are building the masjid have the right to commemorate the even as they see fit. These protestors, who probably got lots of "blood" money to buy extravagent things as they saw fit have no grounds upon which to stand against this masjid except that they are idiots.

I think it is time to speak some truth here. You are an educated, deeply devout Muslim. That is absolutely your right in this country to worship as you wish. But you continue to pillory anyone who even suggests the violence is inherent in the Islamic faith. How is it that you have never heard of this, or can explain it away as merely the blathering of idiots?

In fact, based on the sword-verses as well as countless other Qur'anic verses and oral traditions attributed to Muhammad, Islam's learned officials, sheikhs, muftis, and imams throughout the ages have all reached consensus—binding on the entire Muslim community—that Islam is to be at perpetual war with the non-Muslim world until the former subsumes the latter. Indeed, it is widely held by Muslim scholars that since the sword-verses are among the final revelations on the topic of Islam's relationship to non-Muslims, that they alone have abrogated some 200 of the Qur'an's earlier and more tolerant verses, such as "no compulsion is there in religion."[9] Famous Muslim scholar Ibn Khaldun (1332-1406) admired in the West for his "progressive" insights, also puts to rest the notion that jihad is defensive warfare:

In the Muslim community, the holy war [jihad] is a religious duty, because of the universalism of the Muslim mission and the obligation to convert everybody to Islam either by persuasion or by force ... The other religious groups did not have a universal mission, and the holy war was not a religious duty for them, save only for purposes of defense ... They are merely required to establish their religion among their own people. That is why the Israelites after Moses and Joshua remained unconcerned with royal authority [e.g., a caliphate]. Their only concern was to establish their religion [not spread it to the nations] … But Islam is under obligation to gain power over other nations.[10]

Modern authorities agree. The Encyclopaedia of Islam's entry for "jihad" by Emile Tyan states that the "spread of Islam by arms is a religious duty upon Muslims in general … Jihad must continue to be done until the whole world is under the rule of Islam … Islam must completely be made over before the doctrine of jihad [warfare to spread Islam] can be eliminated." Iraqi jurist Majid Khaduri (1909-2007), after defining jihad as warfare, writes that "jihad … is regarded by all jurists, with almost no exception, as a collective obligation of the whole Muslim community."[11] And, of course, Muslim legal manuals written in Arabic are even more explicit.[12]

http://www.meforum.org/2159/are-judaism-and-christianity-as-violent-as-islam

There is a great deal more information on the debate over violence between the respective religions of Islam and Christianity. Instead of a virulent "Up yours!" it would be nice to actually discuss the topic.

[Heracles 417]

Yea, its a long standing Christian tradition, too. In fact, its a tactic for missionaries to be sent in first to lower the resistance of conquered people. Bush did that in Iraq.

Speaking of Iraq, would you have no problem with the building of hundreds of Christian churches throughout Iraq?

How quick we are to forget the Ottomans and co that simply butchered people to believe. Unfortunately many in the Middle East seem to suffer amnesia towards the bloodshed that was a result of their hands, or their ancestors hands. Must be why Turkey invading Cyprus is no big deal but the British handing over Palestine to Israel - the original inhabitants - is just wrong wrong wrong.

You can build them when I can build masjids in Vatican City.

What a red herring.

True however those in the Vatican would not demand the beheading of Muslims or attempt to destroy the place.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I think it is time to speak some truth here. You are an educated, deeply devout Muslim. That is absolutely your right in this country to worship as you wish. But you continue to pillory anyone who even suggests the violence is inherent in the Islamic faith. How is it that you have never heard of this, or can explain it away as merely the blathering of idiots?

There is a great deal more information on the debate over violence between the respective religions of Islam and Christianity. Instead of a virulent "Up yours!" it would be nice to actually discuss the topic.

I have discussed the topic, countless times. I find it offensive that no one is listening, but, hey, who cares about that. You assume I know nothing of the sword verses when I posted about them on this board several times this week. It's difficult to cut through the babble you find on Muslim hating websites because you want me to waste my time debating something that isn't true but that you are convinced of because the places you get your info from are lying to you and you enjoy being lied to.

Who here is Catholic? I want them to answer to me for the Inquisition, the Crusades, pediphile scandal, the IRA conflict, the stealing of Native American children, and all the other BS that religion has stood for.

Speaking of Iraq, would you have no problem with the building of hundreds of Christian churches throughout Iraq?

How quick we are to forget the Ottomans and co that simply butchered people to believe. Unfortunately many in the Middle East seem to suffer amnesia towards the bloodshed that was a result of their hands, or their ancestors hands. Must be why Turkey invading Cyprus is no big deal but the British handing over Palestine to Israel - the original inhabitants - is just wrong wrong wrong.

True however those in the Vatican would not demand the beheading of Muslims or attempt to destroy the place.

How do you know? And, what has that got to do with a masjid in NYC?

You don't know that Christians killed people who refused to convert? Educate yourself.

There have been churches in Iraq for centuries.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Sofiyya

[Heracles 417]

How do you know? And, what has that got to do with a masjid in NYC?

You don't know that Christians killed people who refused to convert? Educate yourself.

Nice try but it was nowhere near that of the Muslim tyrants. You guys butchered people like rabid cattle. Heck, you still do in many parts of the world - to this day actually. Sudan ring a bell? Attempting to downplay the violence that still plagues Islam does your argument no good. As doesn't building a mosque in such a sensitive area for America.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Booyah!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Nice try but it was nowhere near that of the Muslim tyrants. You guys butchered people like rabid cattle. Heck, you still do in many parts of the world - to this day actually. Sudan ring a bell? Attempting to downplay the violence that still plagues Islam does your argument no good.

Christians coming to the US for religious freedom killed off most of the population of the New World in their quest to claim land for Jesus. They did the same in South Africa and parts of Asia. They killed Jews and Muslims to try to gain control of Jerusalem and Muslim Spain. They have bombed and condoned the bombing of women and children in the Middle East to protect Israel. You have some bloody hands and everyone knows it.

Oh, and how could I omit the carnage in Australia and the neglect and abuse of the aborigines? But, you know about that.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Sofiyya

[ready4ONE 5,400]

I have discussed the topic, countless times. I find it offensive that no one is listening, but, hey, who cares about that. You assume I know nothing of the sword verses when I posted about them on this board several times this week. It's difficult to cut through the babble you find on Muslim hating websites because you want me to waste my time debating something that isn't true but that you are convinced of because the places you get your info from are lying to you and you enjoy being lied to.

Who here is Catholic? I want them to answer to me for the pediphile scandal, the IRA conflict, the stealing of Native American children, and all the other BS that religion has stood for.

How do you know? And, what has that got to do with a masjid in NYC?

How do you simply continue to ignore that a significant number of people, who consider themselves Muslim, commit acts in the name of their version of Islam, to say nothing of the actual history of Islam, which you MUST be aware of?

Why do you think it is somehow giving a proper answer to fling "Christians are worse!"

Logically speaking, you should be as concerned as the next person who wishes to live a peaceful life about this rather significant group? Call them what you want. Deny they are even Muslim and call them Gremlins.

By the way, my information comes from a variety of sources, as well as better than 40 years on the planet and a deep love of history. Either you are ignorant of history, or as I said, not being completely honest in this forum.

[Heracles 417]

Christians coming to the US for religious freedom killed off most of the population of the New World in their quest to claim land for Jesus. They did the same in South Africa and parts of Asia. They killed Jews and Muslims to try to gain control of Jerusalem and Muslim Spain. They have bombed and condoned the bombing of women and children in the Middle East to protect Israel. You have some bloody hands and everyone knows it.

Next you are going to tell me that the religion is actually peaceful yet the rest are the instigators. Did or did Al Qaeda not kill in the name of Islam? Face it, Islam has a notorious history of not being able to coexist with others. Actually, it's not even history it's the present. While there are a large number of good honest Muslims, there are also equally as many who would kill non-believers in a heartbeat.

I personally know good Muslims and feel for them but unfortunately there are a hell of a lot who tarnish their reputation and name. That is the shame to me, that those that are good folks have to suffer because of the rest of the misguide knuckle-dragging fools.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Booyah!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

How do you simply continue to ignore that a significant number of people, who consider themselves Muslim, commit acts in the name of their version of Islam, to say nothing of the actual history of Islam, which you MUST be aware of?

Why do you think it is somehow giving a proper answer to fling "Christians are worse!"

Logically speaking, you should be as concerned as the next person who wishes to live a peaceful life about this rather significant group? Call them what you want. Deny they are even Muslim and call them Gremlins.

By the way, my information comes from a variety of sources, as well as better than 40 years on the planet and a deep love of history. Either you are ignorant of history, or as I said, not being completely honest in this forum.

I am going to ignore you tonight because I know that you are only posting to be provacative. Your posts do not honestly reflect the contributions I have made and continue to make on this board. You accuse me of things I have not done and I will not trouble myself answering false accusations, nor will I limit myself to apologizing for the acts of people I don't even know.

I have every right to post in opposition to those who hate Muslims and lump us all together as one without being drawn into ridiculous arguments about Saudi Arabia and other straw man arguments. If you want to discuss this masjid, I'm all for it, but I'm not responsible for terrorism nor am I responsible for catering to all the obfuscating you guys can come up with.

Next you are going to tell me that the religion is actually peaceful yet the rest are the instigators. Did or did Al Qaeda not kill in the name of Islam? Face it, Islam has a notorious history of not being able to coexist with others. Actually, it's not even history it's the present. While there are a large number of good honest Muslims, there are also equally as many who would kill non-believers in a heartbeat.

I personally know good Muslims and feel for them but unfortunately there are a hell of a lot who tarnish their reputation and name. That is the shame to me, that those that are good folks have to suffer because of the rest of the misguide knuckle-dragging fools.

You know nothing. When you do, please let me know.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

The basis of the anti-masjid arguments here are that Islam is evil and only those who are ignorant or ill-practicing are the "good" Muslims. That means that the bad Muslims are actually the ones who are practicing the faith authentically. This is a truly dishonest argument and not worth engaging in any ernest manner.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Sofiyya

[Heracles 417]

I just don't understand why you refuse to accept that building a mosque at the 9-11 site would be controversial. After all, it does not win you any friends; which is apparently the intention of the site. No?

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I just don't understand why you refuse to accept that building a mosque at the 9-11 site would be controversial. After all, it does not win you any friends; which is apparently the intention of the site. No?

I understand that it's controversial. I also understand that the only reason that it is is because of the stupidity, bigotry and proprietory attitude of the idiots who drummed up opposition by spreading lies. This thread proves that.

[ready4ONE 5,400]

I am going to ignore you tonight because I know that you are only posting to be provacative. Your posts do not honestly reflect the contributions I have made and continue to make on this board. You accuse me of things I have not done and I will not trouble myself answering false accusations, nor will I limit myself to apologizing for the acts of people I don't even know.

I have every right to post in opposition to those who hate Muslims and lump us all together as one without being drawn into ridiculous arguments about Saudi Arabia and other straw man arguments. If you want to discuss this masjid, I'm all for it, but I'm not responsible for terrorism nor am I responsible for catering to all the obfuscating you guys can come up with.

You know nothing. When you do, please let me know.

I don't hate Muslim's, for the record. I have grave concern about how many practice and see Islam as their faith. This does not mean that no one can truly believe in Islam in any sort of peaceful manner, nor that many do not indeed do just that. However, intellectual honesty indicates that for many, and historically, Islam was and continues to be practiced in a less than peaceful manner. Ground Zero would be just one proof of that.

This is the basis of my objection to the placement of this particular mosque. It is, despite your false accusations, not without reason or based solely on blind hatred. Sorry that you feel attacked.