If you have an accent

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

First:

You need to wake up, because you are living in dream land. The two most important incentives that illegals have to come to the USA are a better life than what they can ever dream to have in their home countries (Yes! countries, because illegals are not only Mexican) and the lure of very easy money through the trafficking of drugs to the vast and hungry USA market.

Second:

I could care less about the laws that you mentioned above. Obama care should have never passed, and it has to come a day when people stop depending on the government and start depending on themselves, especially for retirement. Stop being victims! Everything has to be a law in this country. It makes me sick!

Third:

I know more illegals that have pearly white skin like YOU, than illegals that have brown or yellow skin. According to you, I should immediately report these "white slaves" and their "owners" because a crime is being committed. Well, I won't do that. Why? Because these people are happier doing what they are doing than how they were in their fabulous countries, where you propose to send them back to.

For the record, these illegals that I know are not being raped, and not being forced to do jobs they do not want to do. Their only disadvantage is that they get paid a little less than their peers and they cannot complain. Otherwise their working conditions are exactly the same as those working with them who have all the benefits of working in the USA legally.

The supporters of abuse and slavery are very difficult to convince sometimes. But we will use your out,ine

First

There are no lifestyle advantages for people that cannot ne employed as slaves because the punichment for hiring illegals is so severe as to make it impractical for anyone to do so for fear of losing their business/home etc. I am not racist and dop not care what country illegals are from. I do not support slavery and abuse of any person regardless of race.

Second

It doesn't matter if you like the laws. They are the laws of the country. Citizens and legal immigrants have the ability to depend on themselves as much as they like. Laws are laws, we cannot allow employers to avoid the laws we pass by hiring slaves.

Third

I am not racist, I do not care what color their skin is. According to me, neither you nor anyone else has to report anyone to anyone, Pass a law implementing a tax of $500,000 per day per illegal working and they will be immediately released from their slave labor job. Pass a law requiring the presentation of documents of legal presence for school enrollment, medical care (like it or not, Obama care does NOT cover illegals, it specifically does not cover illegals)drivers licenses, etc. The slaves will go back to whatever country they came from on their own, at their own expense. We will not need walls, fences, deportations or anything else and the USA will no longer offer a better lifestyle for slaves.

You do not know many illegals. That a few slaves are treated well (except for being underpaid) means nothing. They are also not receiving SS payments, medicare payments, workman's comp payments, disability payments, their families are nor protected. It DOES NOT MATTER if they "agree to it" or you like it or not. It is illegal, it is a violation of laws we duly implmented and the employers of these people should be severly punished economically until employing slaves is impractical.

Drug dealers are a whole 'nother matter and have no bearing on this topic and I will not discuss any other criminal activity in conjunction with the employment of slaves. It is nothing but a diversion. we have adequate laws to deal with drug dealers regardless of their immigration status.

For the record, so you and everyone else is clear...

I DO NOT support or advocate...

Deportations, walls, fences, reporting anyone, arresting anyone, the government checking green cards with or without probable cause, invasions of peoples privacy,etc. I do not care what color people's skin is. I do not mix drug dealers with slave laborers, they are not the same.

I support ONLY the removal of conditions which make the use of slave labor economically feasible. We do not need laws to prevent the construction of buggy whip factories. There is no economic need for buggy whips so you will not wake up to a new buggy whip factory being built in your backyard tomorrow, I promise. WHEN the economic conditions that are conducive to slavery are removed, the slaves will be freed and they will go home on their own.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I really don't think that punishment for business alone will do the trick. There also has to be physical enforcement of immigration law. Sad but true. Although mass movement of business to Mexico in the form of factories, etc. will help raise the standard of living in some areas, it is important to understand how porous the Mexican borders are, and this is not just a problem for the US. So even if the standard of living in Mexico is somehow raised enough to take away some of the incentive to move north for the people who already live on the border, what about all the impoverished people in the south, and other countries? That is one of the primary differences between Mexico and Canada. Also, this economic stuff is separate, although related, from the question of security I talked about earlier.

Why not rry it Brad?

The border with Canada is no less porous than the one with Mexico. I can take you for walks in the woods near my home and we can walk into Canada and never know it. You can set off your boat from my pier and be in Canada in about 10 minutes and never know it. There is absolutely no border marker or enforcement AT ALL. None. If there is a boat off my pier, there is an 80% chance or so the people on it speak French and are from Quebec. Quebecois far outnumber Americans living in the surrounding area, by like 10 to 1.

But we have no problem of illegal immigration from Quebecois because there is no economic advantage to do so. economic advantages can exist in many forms. One is a difference in lifestyle and economy, such does not exost between the USA and Canada. Life in Montreal is virtually identical to life in Chicago, New York, Boston. The houses look the same, the people live about the same, they make about the same amount of money and can freely dock thier boats in Vermont and New York where most of the marinas are (the Canadian part of the lake is pretty shallow and not conducive to big sailboats which the Quebecois seem to like) So the reason the Canadians are not sneaking past my house in the dark is because there is no economic incetive as they already have what they could get here.

Mexico, on the other hand, has a poor economy, so poor that even being a slave here is better than being a free person in Mexico. Doesn;t matter. We cannot allow slavery even if slavery is a step up for some people. If they cannot get a "better" job as a slave they will not come, just as the Canadians do not come because they cannot get better jobs (there actually is some illegal immigration fom Canada, but it is not Canadians)

We simply need to enforce the laws we have passed to provide a quality of life we desire, a level of work standards we demand for ALL people. I am not proposing even that we pass ANY new laws, we already have the laws we need. Simply increase the level of punishment for violations of existing laws on employers. If they WANT to employ Mexicans, they can move their factory, as many have to avoid tax laws. Our goverment ought to be making it easy for our factories to employ Americans in America and not encourage them to leave the country (the factories in Mexico were not deported, they left for economic, TAX, reasons, they will stop employing illegals for the same reasons)

The US government knows all about manipulating society with the tax code. Want people to buy cars? Cash for clunkers. Want people to buy houses? $8000 tax rebate. Want people to improve the energy efficiency of their homes? Tax incentives. They even manipulate states to legislate drinking age, seat belt laws and educational standards by wihholding money if they do not. The government knows exactly how to eliminate the problem of illegal immigration today. The government has NO DESIRE to elimnate illegal immigration as it is so valable a political tool for both the ruling parties. The only thing they do is make stupid laws and debate the same thing over and over when everyone sees the pink elephant in the room. Everyone has an agenda for the illegals, a desire for them to be here, just as everyone wanted slavery in the 1850s and 60s. everyone beefits from it and no one cares that millions of people are exploited and abused for their selfish desires.

will it stop every illegal. No. Will it stop every employer from hiring slaves? No. will it stop most of them? Absolutely. You are a banker Brad, you know what happens when an economic consideration moves a company to go one way or another on a project or plans for the future. You know as well as I do that every decision made by a company has tax based considerations in it. I see whole plans for multi-million $$$ projects thrown out over tax considerations, the tax reform of 1986 completely changed the commercial real estate business forever.

A huge tax punishment for employing slaves will put an end to the practice. simple as that.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

Gary,

as a fiscally conservative liberal who embraces libertarian ideas, I'm not exactly in your political corner. Yet your post shows a breathtaking and utter comprehension of the whole immigration issue. If your fellow Americans had only a fraction of your brain power and ability to see through the smoke, we would need no discussion on this subject as its implications are self-explanatory.

One point, however, I'd like to add: putting pressure on the Mexican government. Tell them if they don't cooperate in getting the illegal border crossings under control, the US will pull all of their manufacturing (i.e., Dodge trucks) out of their country and seize giving out treats to the Mexican Government.

[Darnell 8,478]

Well, lets see what the arrest #'s are for this month - the first week o May - the stats should have been collected, by then.

GoGoGadget ShowYerIDCard!

[Darnell 8,478]

** yeah. The 4th amendment is for white people.

Some might say it's for Citizens

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Gary,

as a fiscally conservative liberal who embraces libertarian ideas, I'm not exactly in your political corner. Yet your post shows a breathtaking and utter comprehension of the whole immigration issue. If your fellow Americans had only a fraction of your brain power and ability to see through the smoke, we would need no discussion on this subject as its implications are self-explanatory.

One point, however, I'd like to add: putting pressure on the Mexican government. Tell them if they don't cooperate in getting the illegal border crossings under control, the US will pull all of their manufacturing (i.e., Dodge trucks) out of their country and seize giving out treats to the Mexican Government.

I am also a TRUE liberal (libertarian) so while I undewrstand your frustration, it is not our governments place to dictate policy to Mexico and not all illegal aliens are Mexican. Also it is not our government's policy to dictate to Dodge (well, maybe it is now, but it shouldn;t be)

The government can get any of those companies to move back tomorrow by passing the FAIR TAX. The government can get ALL the illegal aliens to go home tomorrow by taxing the holy living sh*t out of any business that hires one and seizing their proerty to cover the tax debt.

The politicians in Mexico (since you mention it) need illegals also. Slavery is, and always has been, good for both sides of the slave supply chain. Mexico has, at any given moment, nearly 10% of its citizens in the USA, this is a huge relief valve for the Mexican government. Also, the sale of its citizens as slaves to the USA provides the largest part of their foreign income (except possibly for drug smuggling which isn't nearly so well documented) The primary source of foreign trade for Mexico is as a pimp for its citizens. You would be asking them to cut off their biggest industry...slave auctioning. It will never happen. Just as Africans sold their fellow Africans into slavery, the Mexican government will sell its citizens into slavery. Nothing new under the sun. The widespread use of Africans as slaves did NOT end because of some moral compunction originating in Africa. Mexico will do nothing to end the exploitation of Mecians, they get too much money from it.

This whole problem is about MONEY. It all goes away when there is no MONEY reason for it to exist.

The US government has the ability to end this tomorrow, they do not need to askl anyone, they do not need to be accused of racism, they do not need to invade anyones rights, they do not need a fence, a virtual fence or anything else, They simply need to make it economically impossible to employ slaves. If employers wish to exploit humans, abuse them, take awy all the rights we fought for, turn back 125 years of labor laws...then we need to tax them right out of business.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The law requires police to question (let's face it) dark-skinned people about their immigration status if they have "reasonable suspicion." It also has a provision allowing police to be sued if people don't think the Police are doing this. It's a terrible answer to a very real problem. It's unfortunate that the Federal government won't get off their collective butts to do something about illegal immigration, but this is not the answer. I look forward to the many many lawsuits that will make Arizona look like the backwards hicks they just signed up to be, and the eventual repeal of this unconstitutional law. In the meantime, my immigrant wife and I will make sure none of our dollars are spent with Arizona businesses.

But you will pay $$$ to contractors that send brown people on the roof without a safety harness in violation of the law...risking the brown persons life to increase his profits. Racist. You will buy lettuce picked by someone making $3 per hour because the minimum wage law is only for whites. Racist. When will you apply the laws you support for whites, the protections you want for whites, to all people? Why is it ok with you to abuse and exploit brown people, but you will boycott a state (????) for checking green cards? How dare they try to prevent the exploitation and abuse of brown people that you so depend on. Racist.

I cannot believe that anyone that claims to be a gun toting liberal would be so opposed to the fair treatment of all people. Astounding.

And you say they are "backward hicks"?

[ScratchIt 12]

I cannot believe that anyone that claims to be a gun toting liberal would be so opposed to the fair treatment of all people criminals. Astounding.

Just a reminder of who we are talking about here.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Some might say it's for Citizens

Then they would be wrong.

The entire principal of our constitution and bill of rights is that they are rights held by ALL people, regardless of which country they live in or are from. We cannot force all countries around the world to recognize this, but we have gone to war numerous times trying to and sanctioned countries coutless times exactly for this (at least that is the story)

An illegal alien in this country, even if he is an axe murderer, has a 4th amendment right, and a first amendment right and all the others. Rights are for PEOPLE, not for "citizens". Please do not tell me you think your wife or mine does not have constitutional rights. I am sure you do not think that.

The irony, no the disgusting racist hypocrisy, comes in when racists USE those rights to promote racism. "You cannot check him for a green card and violate his fourth amendment right, but we can employ him in inhumane conditions, underpay him and make profits from abusing him!" There is no more disgusting a form of racism. It is far worse than the "We NEED to help them with welfare because they CAN'T do it on their own" type of racism of low expectations. This is the "I need them for MY benefit so leave them alone to do my dirty work" type.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Just a reminder of who we are talking about here.

You are an American? You think criminals are not due constitutional rights?

The new level of stupidity this issue brings is unreal. Both sides are anxious to put forth totally ridiculous arguments in order to maintain the institution of slavery. It is so blantantly obvious and people doing it look so blantantly racist to anyone with a functioning brain cell.

We are talking about, at least I am, (and it was my comment you edited, please be original and write your own, OK?) the criminals that employ slave labor in this country in order to circumvent the safeguards we have put in place over the last 125 years to protect the safety and dignity of human beings. What are YOU talking about? You want to punish the slaves? Are you serious?

I believe that the criminals employing slave labor should be taxed to a level that causes their business property to be confiscated to pay taxes. After due process of course, they have rights, you know. I believe that if you hire an illegal to cut your lawn, you should be taxed $500,000 and forced to sell your home to pay it. I bet you would not hire an illegal to cut your lawn. Then again, you may be stupid enough to do that but by far most people would not.

Mox knows better, he is from California. The entire state would collapse without slave labor. They are as dependent on slaves now as Alabama was in 1855. Mox doesn't want slavery to end because he really doesn't give a sh*t about brown people and only needs them to care for his wants, needs and desires. They are a political football being kicked around for the gain of various politicians and not one serious proposal has been put forth to end the "problem".

People that advance the "rights" of slaves, simply want them left alone to BE slaves. Allow the status quo to continue. Keep our mouths shut and look the other way while they are abused, exploited and shipped like cattle across our borders and auctioned off in Home Depot parking lots like so many draft animals. Disgusting racism.

Then the other side, the side you support, wants to treat the slaves like criminals! Why? are they getting a little uppity for you? You want to oppress them MORE so they will keep quiet? Heck, I imagine you could CANE the slaves in Arizona right now and they wouldn't complian. Is that what you want? You want to be able to abuse them and exploit them MORE so you make laws "against them" stricter?

NONE of these laws will stop the "problem" because none of the people making laws see it as a "problem" Get a f*cking clue!

The unlawful entry into this country of millions of people (of ALL skin colors) is a calculated re-supply of low cost, regulation exempt labor for business, a source of dependent constituents for politicians, a source of income for politicians in their home country and a means to cheap "stuff" for the rest of us. That is all.

It has nothing to do with drugs, crime, etc. Those are separate issues handled by sepoarate laws. slave laborers are not the same as drug dealers. They are not addressed by the same laws.

I am not a rocket scientist, this is not rocket science. You see it, you know it as well as I do. There are a few racist advocates that try to croak out an objection to the logic of facts...Clueless is one of them. The rest leave the room when the elephant is pointed out and drop the subject before they embarrass themselves further. But as I sdaid, this topic exposes a stupidity that sinks to new low levels. Some people are "stuck on stupid" when it comes to this topic.

Not a single "conservative" talk radio host has put forth the facts. Not a single "undocumented advocate" group has put forth the facts. Not a single politician, community organizer or legislator. None. Is it not obvious to them that employers thumb their nose at our laws by hiring slaves?

Why doesn't Limbaugh or Beck, Ingraham or Hannity put forth the cause of human rights? Because they don't care!! Why doesn't Obama or Pelosi, Boxer or Kerry notice that illegals are not being paid minimum wage and are not being protected from injury, abuse, even sexual harassment? Because they don't care!!!! They ALL need the slaves, they all WANT the slaves. But slaves don't vote, so they need to "do something" to appeal to their racist voting base and do so depending on which type of racist you are and which type of racist votes for them.

Instead we have Presidential debates where the candidates argue whether or not slaves should get drivers licenses!!!!! #######!!!!! Why, so they can drive to their slave jobs? well, at least if you are going to advocate that you could point out that many are hauled to work like cattle in stake trucks, risking their lives in auto accidents and against highway safety rules that no one cares about if the human cargo is brown (and dammit, we shouldn't even stop a truck full of brown people in Arizona because they have a right to be hauled around like cattle to unsafe jobs for $3 per hour!!!!!! Stopping them would be "racial profiling" and we cannot do that!)

Good grief

[mox 298]

But you will pay $$$ to contractors that send brown people on the roof without a safety harness in violation of the law...risking the brown persons life to increase his profits. Racist. You will buy lettuce picked by someone making $3 per hour because the minimum wage law is only for whites. Racist. When will you apply the laws you support for whites, the protections you want for whites, to all people? Why is it ok with you to abuse and exploit brown people, but you will boycott a state (????) for checking green cards? How dare they try to prevent the exploitation and abuse of brown people that you so depend on. Racist.

I cannot believe that anyone that claims to be a gun toting liberal would be so opposed to the fair treatment of all people. Astounding.

And you say they are "backward hicks"?

For somebody who's thrown fits in the past for people putting words in their mouth, you sure are putting a lot of words in my mouth. And the funny thing is that the argument you're making (illegal immigration "slavery" and safety issues) is the same argument I've made in the past, only to be lambasted as a whiney freedom-hating liberal.

I said I was opposed to the Arizona law, not protecting our borders.

[jimnlena 8]

For somebody who's thrown fits in the past for people putting words in their mouth, you sure are putting a lot of words in my mouth. And the funny thing is that the argument you're making (illegal immigration "slavery" and safety issues) is the same argument I've made in the past, only to be lambasted as a whiney freedom-hating liberal.

I said I was opposed to the Arizona law, not protecting our borders.

But do not forget "locking the gate after the cows get out" does not do much good. Unless you have a way of returning the cows to the pasture.

[mox 298]

But do not forget "locking the gate after the cows get out" does not do much good. Unless you have a way of returning the cows to the pasture.

I prefer not to think of human beings in terms of cattle, but as I've said before, and as Gary now champions, illegal immigrants are only a symptom to the bigger problem of US citizens giving illegal immigrants a reason to cross. You cut off the supply of illegal jobs and you've solved most of the illegal immigration problem.

All that happens when you throw the Constitution out, is that you weaken the Constitution for everyone. The Arizona law is just one step closer to the government being able to detain anybody at anytime for any reason.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

But do not forget "locking the gate after the cows get out" does not do much good. Unless you have a way of returning the cows to the pasture.

They are humans, not cows. But even cows know which pasture the food is in. Put the food back in the proper pasture and the cows go there all by themselves, just don't build a FENCE to keep them from going back where they belong.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I prefer not to think of human beings in terms of cattle, but as I've said before, and as Gary now champions, illegal immigrants are only a symptom to the bigger problem of US citizens giving illegal immigrants a reason to cross. You cut off the supply of illegal jobs and you've solved most of the illegal immigration problem.

All that happens when you throw the Constitution out, is that you weaken the Constitution for everyone. The Arizona law is just one step closer to the government being able to detain anybody at anytime for any reason.

I haven't championed the arizona law. It is as BS and worthless as any of the others. It is a conservative racist law that is designed to push the slaves farther into the shadows so they can be abused MORE and fear MORE being caught.

It is as bad as the California, San Francisco rule stating it is a sanctuary city...come here and be abused, we will look the other way. Boycotting "Arizona" (I am not sure how you boycott a "state" since states don't make anything, they are as unproductive as any other branch of government and you only punish people, not states)

NONE of these laws are designed to do ANYthing except appeal to a particular brqnd of racist that lives within that jurisdiction and give those racists the impression that the "government", ANY government, is "doing something" It is the very reason I do not want the government handling my health care....they really don;t DO anything, they only pretend to look like they do something.

OUR constitutional rights should be protected and if this law is not unconstitutional, we are ALL in a heap of trouble. Be that as it may, the "problem" needs to be addressed with real answers