Watch National Geographic

[EddieLovesLiana 1]

I like Military History Channel. Especially if it's about World War 2. Only 70 years ago, which is not that long ago, over 60 million killed, the world was in complete chaos. Over 23 million people killed from the Soviet Union, that is nearly half of the total.

On religion. God created all creatures? What the hell was he thinking when he created Hitler?

mox:"Living together in a marriage is always going to be different, no matter what your relationship was like pre-marriage."

I totally agree

[SandT 0]

It's sad to see National Geographic taking the low road like this. I know even NG have to pay the bills, but what's next, documentaries on young earth creationists? The NG name used to stand for a certain level of credibility. Not this kind of garbage.

Exactly. I know integrity in journalism seems to be dying, but I thought NG might have been more objective, and chosen the candidates for the movie a bit differently, instead of playing up the stereotypes and the "expected."

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

I like Military History Channel. Especially if it's about World War 2. Only 70 years ago, which is not that long ago, over 60 million killed, the world was in complete chaos. Over 23 million people killed from the Soviet Union, that is nearly half of the total.

On religion. God created all creatures? What the hell was he thinking when he created Hitler?

mox:"Living together in a marriage is always going to be different, no matter what your relationship was like pre-marriage."

I totally agree

He was probably thinking the same thing when he created Stalin.

[mox 298]

I like Military History Channel. Especially if it's about World War 2. Only 70 years ago, which is not that long ago, over 60 million killed, the world was in complete chaos. Over 23 million people killed from the Soviet Union, that is nearly half of the total.

On religion. God created all creatures? What the hell was he thinking when he created Hitler?

There will always be bad people to do bad things. But religion is what makes good people do evil things. I don't know if Hitler was ever "good," but religion drove him much more than is generally credited.

[visaveteran 1]

There will always be bad people to do bad things. But religion is what makes good people do evil things. I don't know if Hitler was ever "good," but religion drove him much more than is generally credited.

Most bad deeds since WWII were done by communists like Stalin and Mao and Ho Chi Minh...all atheists.

[mox 298]

Crimes aren't commited in the name of Atheism. Hitler's reasonings were very grounded in faith, including plans fo a post-war "church of the reich." Soviet policies were executed under a Marxist ideology, which is socio-economic in nature and does not include the propogation of Atheism. The crimes against the church in the Soviet Union were not driven by Atheism, but by Marxist ideology.

[visaveteran 1]

Crimes aren't commited in the name of Atheism. Hitler's reasonings were very grounded in faith, including plans fo a post-war "church of the reich." Soviet policies were executed under a Marxist ideology, which is socio-economic in nature and does not include the propogation of Atheism. The crimes against the church in the Soviet Union were not driven by Atheism, but by Marxist ideology.

Maybe, maybe not. Marxist thought held the state as its deity. The state is all powerful and, indeed, god-like to communists. People bow down to the state machine.

Many wars were fought simply over borders and boundaries and had nothng to do with religion. I don't think religion caused Japan to bomb Pearl Harbor. Communism, Nationalism and imperialism, not religion, marked most of the violence during the 20th Century.

[mox 298]

Japan's entry into WW2 was considered a "holy war." Look up "Hakko ichiu" for more information. Religion had everything to do with Pearl Harbor, and the men who flew those airplanes believed their Emperor to be a god. (now of course the actual act of flying to an island and dropping bombs on parked airplanes and ships is not, in and of itself a "religious act," any more than a pincer movement performed by Holy Crusaders on a contingent of Saracens would be considered a religious act. But in both cases the reason the thing happened at all goes straight back to religion.)

The Soviets never considered the state a "diety," nor was it seen as having any kind of supernatural or God-like powers whatsoever. Certainly Marx would roll over in his grave at the thought of the state as God--he believed almost exactly the opposite: that power belonged in the hands of the working class. (Yakov Smirnoff might--if it were funny--say "in Soviet Russia, God worships you!") In fact, this line of thinking could have gotten a Soviet citizen into some very deep water. It *is* true that the Soviets attempted to eradicate religion from the Soviet Union from the revolution up until about the 40s, but it had nothing to do with supplanting Christianity and Judaism with the "religion" of atheism, and everything to do with Marxist ideology, which is that all property and institutions should be owned and controlled by the state. If you are a Marxist, this makes sense. Churches were private organizations operated from private properties, which is not allowed in a Communist state. I'm of course not defending the very real persecutions that happened within the Soviet Union, but it was never about furthering the cause of atheism and everything to do with state control.

I agree that some conflicts happen out of non-religious reasons, of course. Ideology-driven conflicts (i.e. the majority of conflicts), however, are usually driven either by religion or power grabs wrapped in the guise of religion. Not a single large-scale conflict has every been undertaken to further the cause of atheism. And yet there are roughly as many Atheists in the world as there are Jews. This speaks volumes to me.

[visaveteran 1]

I agree that some conflicts happen out of non-religious reasons, of course. Ideology-driven conflicts (i.e. the majority of conflicts), however, are usually driven either by religion or power grabs wrapped in the guise of religion. Not a single large-scale conflict has every been undertaken to further the cause of atheism. And yet there are roughly as many Atheists in the world as there are Jews. This speaks volumes to me.

The majority of humans believe in god. That does not mean every war is fought over religion. You can always bend and stretch the truth to connect religion but most wars are fought over land and resources. Most liberals believe the US went to war in Iraq for oil. I only wish that were true because we could use some oil. But we've gotten no oil. The Chinese seem to have gotten the rights to the fields. Your Japan example is weak. The Japanese needed more land and resources. So they undertook expansion in the Pacific.

[visaveteran 1]

JNot a single large-scale conflict has every been undertaken to further the cause of atheism. And yet there are roughly as many Atheists in the world as there are Jews. This speaks volumes to me.

I could argue that the communist atheists made war on the Orthodox Church in the USSR.

[mox 298]

Your previous couple of posts seemed to indicate you were interested in an actual discussion. I thought I'd try to encourage that, and so I responded in kind. But I'm not going to be drawn into a "liberals think this way and such." I'm happy to have a normal dialogue if you are.

If you think my argument is "weak," please do back it up with facts, I'm willing to stand corrected. You are correct that Japan did need more resources, but you don't get an entire population to support expansion through conquest by telling them you want their sons to die for oil and iron. You do it the way the Japanese did it, by convincing them they are the "divine race" and launching a "holy war." (and note the use of "divine race." The Japanese literally believed that their race had a supernatural status) The fact that you've already convinced them to worship you as a literal god closes the sale. You do it through religion. (see my previous post where I acknowledge that war is often justified through "power grabs wrapped in the guise of religion.") Again, search on "Hakko ichiu."

You said "that does not mean every war is fought over religion," but I've already conceded that "some conflicts happen out of non-religious reasons, of course." I've already agreed, so it's a moot point.

But "bending and stretching" the truth to connect religion with violence isn't even necessary. Just read the newspaper. People fly airplanes into buildings because of religion. They kill doctors, they blow up Federal buildings, they invade countries, they rape children, they satisfy their sexual indulgences with multiple wives, they commit mass suicides, they commit suicides with bombs to kill innocent people, they plant bombs in baby carriages, they hang people, they commit ritual sacrifice, they burn and drown women, the list goes on and I haven't even listed war. And these are not just religious people who have committed crimes. These are religious people who have committed these crimes because they believe they are doing God's work.

The Sunday or Friday-worshippers who think "well, these are just crazy people who are misinterpreting my religion" are deluding themselves. Deuteronomy tells us to stone our children to death if they disobey. The Koran tells us that non-Muslims are inferior and must be converted or killed. The Torah says that you must kill those who worship any other God than YWEH. (and before we get into the whole "yes but the New Testament changes all that," please let's remember that nobody sells New Testament-only bibles, and many Christians are known to cite "an eye for an eye" type scripture, which comes from the Old Testament. As one of my crazy young earth creationist co-workers likes to say, "you either believe all of it or you believe none of it." At least he's honest.)

I could argue that the communist atheists made war on the Orthodox Church in the USSR.

You could. But a crime committed by an atheist doesn't make it an "atheist crime," in the same way that a crime committed by a Christian doesn't make it a "Christian crime." Crimes or wars of religion (or atheism) are committed with the intent to either spread the ideology or to kill or silence those who stand opposed to the ideology.

From my previous post:

It *is* true that the Soviets attempted to eradicate religion from the Soviet Union from the revolution up until about the 40s, but it had nothing to do with supplanting Christianity and Judaism with the "religion" of atheism, and everything to do with Marxist ideology, which is that all property and institutions should be owned and controlled by the state. If you are a Marxist, this makes sense. Churches were private organizations operated from private properties, which is not allowed in a Communist state. I'm of course not defending the very real persecutions that happened within the Soviet Union, but it was never about furthering the cause of atheism and everything to do with state control.

Remember that it was a socio-economic ideology that drove the Communist party of the Soviet Union. Marx actually saw religion not as a problem, but as a symptom to the larger problem of unhappy people. They used religion to make themselves better, which Marx found exploitative in the same way that we find schoolyard drug dealers exploitative. This is what Marx meant when he said that religion is the opiate of the masses. He didn't want to replace religion with atheism, because then you'd just have the same problem, like replacing meth with cocaine. It wasn't atheism that was the motivating force behind the suppression of religion in the USSR (not just the Orthodox church, although they certainly took the brunt of it), it was an attempt to remove the "opiate" so that the people could be better served by the state. (again, not a defense of the policy, just an explanation of it.)

[visaveteran 1]

Your previous couple of posts seemed to indicate you were interested in an actual discussion. I thought I'd try to encourage that, and so I responded in kind. But I'm not going to be drawn into a "liberals think this way and such." I'm happy to have a normal dialogue if you are.

If you think my argument is "weak," please do back it up with facts, I'm willing to stand corrected. You are correct that Japan did need more resources, but you don't get an entire population to support expansion through conquest by telling them you want their sons to die for oil and iron. You do it the way the Japanese did it, by convincing them they are the "divine race" and launching a "holy war." (and note the use of "divine race." The Japanese literally believed that their race had a supernatural status) The fact that you've already convinced them to worship you as a literal god closes the sale. You do it through religion. (see my previous post where I acknowledge that war is often justified through "power grabs wrapped in the guise of religion.") Again, search on "Hakko ichiu."

You said "that does not mean every war is fought over religion," but I've already conceded that "some conflicts happen out of non-religious reasons, of course." I've already agreed, so it's a moot point.

But "bending and stretching" the truth to connect religion with violence isn't even necessary. Just read the newspaper. People fly airplanes into buildings because of religion. They kill doctors, they blow up Federal buildings, they invade countries, they rape children, they satisfy their sexual indulgences with multiple wives, they commit mass suicides, they commit suicides with bombs to kill innocent people, they plant bombs in baby carriages, they hang people, they commit ritual sacrifice, they burn and drown women, the list goes on and I haven't even listed war. And these are not just religious people who have committed crimes. These are religious people who have committed these crimes because they believe they are doing God's work.

The Sunday or Friday-worshippers who think "well, these are just crazy people who are misinterpreting my religion" are deluding themselves. Deuteronomy tells us to stone our children to death if they disobey. The Koran tells us that non-Muslims are inferior and must be converted or killed. The Torah says that you must kill those who worship any other God than YWEH. (and before we get into the whole "yes but the New Testament changes all that," please let's remember that nobody sells New Testament-only bibles, and many Christians are known to cite "an eye for an eye" type scripture, which comes from the Old Testament. As one of my crazy young earth creationist co-workers likes to say, "you either believe all of it or you believe none of it." At least he's honest.)

You could. But a crime committed by an atheist doesn't make it an "atheist crime," in the same way that a crime committed by a Christian doesn't make it a "Christian crime." Crimes or wars of religion (or atheism) are committed with the intent to either spread the ideology or to kill or silence those who stand opposed to the ideology.

From my previous post:

Remember that it was a socio-economic ideology that drove the Communist party of the Soviet Union. Marx actually saw religion not as a problem, but as a symptom to the larger problem of unhappy people. They used religion to make themselves better, which Marx found exploitative in the same way that we find schoolyard drug dealers exploitative. This is what Marx meant when he said that religion is the opiate of the masses. He didn't want to replace religion with atheism, because then you'd just have the same problem, like replacing meth with cocaine. It wasn't atheism that was the motivating force behind the suppression of religion in the USSR (not just the Orthodox church, although they certainly took the brunt of it), it was an attempt to remove the "opiate" so that the people could be better served by the state. (again, not a defense of the policy, just an explanation of it.)

In any war, you can look to underlying issues to explain the matrix of reasons the war occurred. But how does history view the war in total? As a religious war or other? I don't think history views WWII as a "religious war."

As to atheists and war I cite the following:

Consider Communism as a system in contrast to Christianity. The one -- Christianity -- gives credit to a beneficent Creator as the giver of life; and gives direction of life, defines acceptable conduct; and looks into the future beyond life on earth; whereas the other -- Communism -- is atheistic and accounts for life and the meaning of life according to materialism and evolutionary processes. International Communism is opposed to all religious expression. V. I. Lenin, the celebrated prophet of Communism, said, "Religion is the opium of the people. Religion is a kind of spiritual intoxicant, in which the slaves of capital drown their humanity and their desires for some sort of decent human existence."² In 1920, Lenin formulated the Bolshevik golden rule. He said, "Whatever helps the world Communist revolution is good; whatever hinders it is bad. Religion, through its insistence upon individual responsibility to the Creator of all things, interferes with the advance of world collectivism. It is, therefore, irredeemably evil."³ Listen to "Comrade" E. Yaroslavsky, in his book, Religion in the U. S. S. R.: "Remember that the struggle against religion is a struggle for socialism."⁴ Again, "The program of the Communist International also clearly states that Communists fight against religion…"⁵ Many statements may be found which clearly announce a state of war between the militant atheism of International Communism and the religion of the one and true God, the faith which is in Christ Jesus. It behooves all who recognize that there is God in heaven to inform themselves of this militant evil that is subverting the world. Already millions of people have been brought under its ruthless control, and efforts are now being made to subvert our nation.

What is Communism? It is many things, but simply stated we may say that it is a philosophy of life expressed in a dedication to the advancement of socialism with an ultimate goal of achieving world domination. Karl Marx, who combined the philosophies of Hegel and Feuerbach, developed the philosophical basis. G. F. W. Hegel developed what he called a "scientific analysis" of history and attempted to establish "laws" to guide human action. Marx took this analysis a step further: the laws of human action are to be employed to change the world. He said, "The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways; the point, however, is to change it."⁶ To Marx, revolution became the philosopher's work.

However, this philosophy did not take a socialistic objective or motivation until influenced by Ludwig Feuerbach. Feuerbach taught that God was the creation of man's mind. He was a materialist, i. e. a philosopher who admitted only the existence of matter; he denied the reality of spirit.

Combining materialism and a program of action according to a so-called analysis of history, Marx developed a philosophy designed to produce a will to change, a will to destroy the old and to rebuild a new social order.

Since all changes are material changes, Marx reasoned, there must be material laws of change. With Engels, his son-in-law, Marx defined the laws of change. Every change, we are told, results from a struggle of opposites. And this struggle is constant, i. e. all matter is in a state of constant flux, change and revolution. With every state there is an antithesis, and as this antithesis overthrows the thesis (or status quo) it produces yet another social order (a synthesis). It is the work of the philosopher, Marx taught, to assist this change. We are told, if "the world is in a state of constant movement and development . . . then it is clear that there can be no 'immutable' social system. Hence the capitalist system can be replaced by the Socialist system."⁷ This is the program of International Communism, to overthrow capitalism and Christianity, and ultimately to establish universal atheistic materialism.

The philosophy is called in abbreviation Hismat or Diamat for historical materialism or dialectical materialism. This concept is the idol of Communism. The Communist is devoted to Hismat -- his life is totally dedicated. He lives for its advancement. Hismat is his god, and the Communist Manifesto is his creed. A world struggle now exists between the devotees of Hismat and the worshippers of God Almighty. The conspiracy has vowed to bury all Christians and destroy God's name from the face of the earth!

There are many fallacies in this godless and idolatrous philosophy, not discussed in this lesson. Rather we will content ourselves in this study to understand the conflict, define the enemy, point out the goals, and then to observe the modus operandi by which communism hopes to subvert the United States, in particular through the very means it desires to destroy, namely religion.

In pointing out the goals of Communism, we may do this by referring to three of its basic laws. In denying individual worth and human rights, moral values and responsibility, dialectic materialism affirms that --

1. There is no God. And therefore every moral and virtue that originates with God is denied.

2. Man is a materialistic machine. Man is thought of as the total product of evolution, and who may be improved by animal husbandry.

3. Economic determinism dictates all that is accepted as being right.

Notice these "laws" now in particular. 1. There is no God, and no morals or virtues as eternal verities. This is a basic concept of communism. V. I. Lenin said of morality:

"We deny all morality taken from superhuman or non-class conceptions. We say that this is a deception, a swindle, a befogging of the minds . . ."⁸ Again: "In what sense do we deny ethics, morals? In the sense in which they are preached by the bourgeoisie, which deduces these morals from god's commandments. Of course, we say that we do not believe in god."⁹ And again: "When people talk to us about morality we say: For the Communists, morality consists entirely of compact united discipline and conscious mass struggle against the exploiters. We do not believe in eternal morality, and we expose all fables about morality."¹⁰ There you have it! Whatever advances atheistic communism is morally right to the communist. This is why a communist can lie, steal, and murder with a clear conscience. To him he does right. Millions of people have been slaughtered by the communist conspiracy, and yet its dictatorship shows no emotions of having done wrong. This is because they do not believe that they have done wrong. They can make treaties, and break them at will. This is morally right, they believe, if it advances their cause. A communist can do anything -- from adultery to murder -- and feel morally good if it is for the conspiracy. To the communist mind there is no sin -- nor morality, no right or wrong, except as it relates to communism.

1. Since man is nothing but an animal, communism proposes to improve the race by selective breeding. Under idealistic communism there is no family, no marriage -- free love and state "homes" are ideal arrangements for the propagation and upbringing of the race.

2. Economic determinism dictates what one is, we are told. What one loves, accepts, etc. is influenced by the economic environment.

These so-called "laws" are now being disseminated throughout our land. A concerted effort is being put forth to destroy the moral fiber of our nation. Man is pictured as an animal, and animalistic conduct is suggested in so many ways: through salacious literature, provocative pictures, movies that glorify lasciviousness, and barbarous rhythms called music. Socialism is being expressed in so many government programs. The more these things are advanced, the more we play into the hands of those who are determined to subvert us. In fact, the communists of Soviet Russia no longer insist upon the overthrow of religion and our government by revolution; they believe that we will swallow the communist philosophy bit by bit until we become socialistic in fact. Then these United States will become the United Socialist States of America, and God will be destroyed from the land. This is the design . . . and it is meeting with success. We need to awaken to the threat and turn back this atheistic conspiracy.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

We need a RUB sex thread.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

This is priceless. My initial reaction is to laugh, because it is funny, but it does have to get old for both you and your wife.

There's something SO wrong about people trying to judge others because of their own shortcomings. (being annoyed with you/you wife because she isn't fat).

I'm curious - I'm assuming you finally gave in and said something to someone giving an attitude to both of you?

I haven't said anything yet...out loud...although Iv'e been seriously tempted. Two more months in this ####### hole and were back home.

[mox 298]

You didn't cite your source visaveteran, and dear lord but that's a vast and dense wall of text. Provided a continuing civil tone, I'm interested in what you have to say, not an anonymous diatribe on whatever that was all about. But if it's all about how Communism is bad mmkay, well as I've caveated several times, I am not defending Communism. I am only explaining Marxist ideology regarding religion. If the author of your piece disagrees with me, I highly recommend a reading of the Communist Manifesto by Marx and Engels. It's spelled out pretty much exactly as I described.

WRT WW2, sure, it's not considered a religious war as far as popular culture goes, but you don't have to dig very far into the history books to see how it was heavily influenced--if not actually driven--by religion. Hitler, contrary to popular belief in some circles, was not an atheist, and was in fact a devout Christian who saw atheism as a threat. In fact, Hitler's biggest beef against the Soviet Union was secularism. And as I said, he had plans of instituting a "church of the reich" after the conclusion of the war. His "final solution" was driven by the idea that Jews were too materialistic and non-spiritual, and hence a blight on God's earth. In Mein Kampf (pretty sure my library would freak a lot of people out), Hitler says: "hence today I believe I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jews, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." And then there's the Catholic church, complicit and silent on the extermination of 6 million Jews. I've already mentioned Japan's religious reasons for aggressive expansion, so that pretty much covers the heavy hitters in the Axis. And let's not forget how big a role religion played at the end of WW2 when an entire people was displaced so that the Israelites could have a country all their own. Neither Hitler nor Hirohito can be blamed for that one.