The Muslims are coming!

[Joseph & Ana 0]

Yes Joe, the energy drinks thread is about your level of competence.

And yet none of the posts are at your level of compentence. Funny you should say that.

[Peikko 1,575]

I thought you had gone? Can't resist another attempt at putting Cleo down though can you?

[Joseph & Ana 0]

I thought you had gone? Can't resist another attempt at putting Cleo down though can you?

COuldn't resist.. you're right.. but i'm done now.

[The_Dude 1,142]

I thought you had gone? Can't resist another attempt at putting Cleo down though can you?

Come on MC, you know very well that arguing with Joe about anything of substance is like playing chess with a retarded kid. You know full well that at some point, he is going to slam the board, and simply declare victory despite his position.

[Peikko 1,575]

So endeth the lesson on Muslims.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Wow.

[HYENA 4]

Mark,

You can read the Quran. It is ok.

I just thought you would like to know that not all Arabs are Muslim. There are also Arab Christians and Jews.

Salam (peace)

i hope nobody gets offended i just want to add a little to this........while we as Muslims are taught how to wash before touching the quran there is nothing any place that states that a non Muslim can not read the quran how else will anyone learn about Islam if they are interested.........not to many go out and purchase books about the meaning of islam or how or what u have to do.........the quran is offered in many book stores to be purchased and many places free on the Internet.......we as Muslims love the quran just as the Christian loves the bible ..........we have the bible in our home so that we can learn and compare between the bible and quran..........we even wash before touching the Christian bible because it is a holy book to them

ok im done hope i didnt upset anyone

sara

I'm so upset and throwing things all around my house! (I just can't remember why I'm upset)

[Sofiyya 1,687]

In Defense of Pat Robertson

Pat Robertson and others are right about Islam being a violent religion. Look at the evidence for yourself.

BY: Steven Waldman

Pat Robertson recently drew attacks from Muslim groups for calling Muhammad a "wild-eyed fanatic," among other things. Robertson, as usual, states the case in excessively inflammatory terms.

But it must be said that Robertson's basic critique of Islam as an inherently violent religion is accurate. This may not be politically correct to say, but one need only examine evidence. Islam is not only violent in its current practice but at its core--which is to say in its sacred text, the Qur'an.

Remember that Muhammad was a military leader and as such involved personally in a great deal of brutality. In the course of one battle, Muhammad's troops raid a village and kill everyone "until there was no survivor left." [Full citations provided below.] During another battle, Muhammad's troops killed many men but the "prophet" is disturbed that male infants weren't murdered too--and sends the troops back to finish the job.

The early Muslims are shown to be not only brutal but treacherous (a fact worth remembering as we consider peace treaties with Muslim nations). In one battle, the Muhammadans promised peace to a tribe nearby. Then, when the other tribe members were lulled into complacency, Muhammad massacred "all the males." They kept the women as slaves.

The hatred for other faiths that we see in modern Islam has its roots in the Qur'an. The book tells how the Jews of the area had offered peace and Muhammad invited them to a ceremony to declare peace. Instead, Muhammad massacred the 950 of them.

Muhammad even countenances brutality against his own people. When a group in the region reputedly insulted Allah by worshiping an idol, Muhammad led the slaughter of 3,000 people in a single day. When some of his followers strayed by following non-Islamic sex practices, Allah literally directs Muhammad to slaughter another 24,000: "take all the heads of the people and hang them up before Allah against the sun."

Under the Sharia, the Islamic law, even the slightest infractions are punished with brutal violence. Some foods were not cooked according to Halal laws? Two men were immediately executed.

The notion that Allah is a forgiving God is comical. At one point, Muhammad had led his troops to victory and then had his troops mutilate the genitalia of the opponents. He and his allies also set fire to a walled city and then waited for the victims to flee, at which point they were ambushed and slaughtered. Putting aside the historical accuracy of that account, is this really the "God of Peace" that Muslim leaders speak about?

The appalling treatment of women we see in Islamic countries today also has its roots in the Qur'an. When a mob of Muslims is attacking a man, he responds by offering his own daughter to be raped. Allah teaches the Muslims that to in order repopulate a diminished tribe, they should go to a nearby field, wait for the women to come out, and then kidnap, rape and marry them.

This is all very consistent with the basic theology of Islam spelled out in chilling clarity by Muhammed himself: "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword."

Finally, if there's any doubt about the fanatical nature of the faith, it should be dispelled with this chilling passage: "Happy shall they be who take your little ones [babies] and dash them against the rock."

If you are skeptical, I urge you to read the passages and citations yourself. It's there in black and white.

Citations and documentation

Hmmm, I seem to have made a few errors with the attributions. The passages you've just read are not from the Qur'an; they're from the Bible. Where I say Muhammad, I actually meant either Moses, Joshua, David, or another biblical figure. "I have not come to bring peace but a sword" was uttered by Jesus. When I say "Allah," I actually meant God of the Hebrew Bible. And when I refer to Muhammed's troops, I actually meant the Hebrews. There are obviously many other examples of brutality in the Bible (the best summary I've seen is Gregg Easterbrook's "Beside Still Waters").

Forgive my sloppiness, but it seemed useful to make a point, which is not that Christianity or Judaism are inherently violent but rather that the exercise of scanning ancient texts and pulling out passages depicting violence is of dubious value. Men and women of that earlier day were violent, and so was the God of their sacred book.

I am not saying Islam is a "religion of peace." That actually seems as unprovable as saying it is a religion of violence. What matters fundamentally is how the religion is practiced now. Modern Christians and Jews have proven capable of rising above the violence of the Bible and so have many modern Muslims. That doesn't mean they necessarily will in all cases, but if they choose a path of violence it is not because it is embedded in the Qur'an but rather because they, as individuals, are twisted.

Citations:

For a particularly nice summary of the Bible's violent elements see Gregg Easterbrook's wonderful book, "Beside Still Waters."

Remember that Muhammad is a military leader and as such is involved personally a great deal of brutality. In the course of one battle led by Muhammad, he raids a village and kills everyone "until their was not one survivor left." (This is actually from Numbers 21:35, the story of the taking of Bashan.) After another battle, Muhammad's troops have slain many men but the "prophet" is disturbed that male infants weren't killed--so he sends the troops back to finish the job. (This actually occurs in Numbers 31:14-17, when Israel takes vengeance on the Mid'ianites.)

They are shown to be not only brutal but treacherous (history worth remembering as we consider peace treaties). In one battle, the Muhammadans promised peace to a tribe nearby and then, when they were lulled into complacency, massacred "all the males." They kept the women as slaves. (This is a story from Genesis 34:25, when Simeon and Levi take vengeance on Shechem, who had defiled their sister Dinah.)

More citations

The hatred for other faiths that we see in modern Islam has its roots in the Qur'an. At one point, the Jews of the area had offered peace and Muhammad invited them to a ceremony to declare peace. Instead, Muhammad massacred the 950 of them. (As Elijah does, in I Kings 18:40, to the followers of the false God Ba'al.)

But it goes beyond that; Muhammad even countenances brutality against his own. When one group in the region reputedly insulted Allah by worshiping an idol, Muhammad led the slaughter of 3,000 people in a single day. Another group of dissenters prompted a bloody massacre led by Muhammed that killed 14,700 people, according to the Qur'an. (When Korah leads a rebellion against Moses and Aaron, a plague sent by God kills 14,700, Numbers 16:49). Later, when some of his followers strayed by following non-Islamic sex practices, Allah literally directs Muhammad to slaughter another 24,000: "take all the heads of the people and hang them up before Allah against the sun." (This slaughter occured in Numbers 25:9, when some Isarelites were found to have joined the Moabites in improper sex.)

Under the Sharia, the Islamic law, even the slightest infractions are punished with brutal violence. In one case, some foods were not cooked according to Halal laws, and the two men were immediately executed. (The Lord smites Nadab and Abi'hu, the sons of Aaron, in Leviticus 10:2, for offering an unholy sacrifice.)

The notion that Allah is a forgiving God is comical. At one point, some people had the temerity to question one of the dietary laws and Allah supposedly responded by sending poisonous snakes to kill people. At another point, Muhammed had led his troops to victory but then proceeded to murder and then mutilate the genitalia of the opponents. In one case, they set fire to a walled city and then wait of the fleeing victims and slaughter them as they try to escape. (As Joshua and the people of Israel do to the city of Ai in Joshua 8:22.)

The appalling treatment of women in Islamic countries today has its roots in the Qur'an. In one case, a mob of Muslims is attacking a man and he responds by offering his own daughter to be raped. (As in Judges 19:24.) In some cases, it specifies that women who are raped should be executed. (One of these cases appear in Deuteronomy 22:23-27.) In another case, Allah literally instructs the Muslims that to repopulate a diminished tribe they should go to a nearby field, wait for the women to come out, kidnap, rape and marry them. (In Judges 21:20-24, Benjamite soldiers are told to repopulate their tribe by kidnapping the women of Shiloh.)

This is all very consistent and the theology that undergirds this is spelled out in chilling clarity, directly from Muhammad himself: "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." (This quote is actually attributed to Jesus in the New Testament, Matthew 10:34.)

Finally, if there's any doubt about the fanatical nature of the faith, it should be dispelled with this chilling passage: "Happy shall they be who take your little ones [babies] and dash them against the rock." (This quote is actually from the Psalms, 137:9, when the exiled Israelites dream of revenge against Babylon.)

[AlHayatZween 2]

So apparently there aren't any verses which show the loving and forgiving god that Allah is.

Sura 4 - An-Nisa (MADINA) : Verse 110

If anyone does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah's forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Sura 3 - Al-E-Imran (MADINA) : Verse 159

It is part of the Mercy of Allah that thou dost deal gently with them. Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted they would have broken away from about thee; so pass over (their faults), and ask for (Allah's) forgiveness for them; and consult them in affairs (of moment). Then when thou hast taken a decision, put thy trust in Allah. For Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him).

Sura 2 - Al-Baqara (MADINA) : Verse 199

Then pass on at a quick pace from the place whence it is usual for the multitude so to do and ask for Allah's forgiveness. For Allah is Oft Forgiving Most Merciful.

Sura 4 - An-Nisa (MADINA) : Verse 106

But seek the forgiveness of Allah; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Sura 64 - At-Taghabun (MAKKA) : Verse 17

If ye loan to Allah a beautiful loan He will double it to your (credit), and He will grant you Forgiveness: for Allah is most Ready to appreciate (service) Most Forbearing―

there are many but it is all thru the quran there is not just a verse or chapter on it ........

sara

Good job, Sara... though i'm not sure it will do much good as this conversation has officially gone in the toilet. People believe what they want to and then won't budge even when reasonable discussion and exchange comes a'knocking. Apparently Joe missed that every single Surah in the Qur'an, every single one, begins with : "In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful."

Dear Joe,

My one question to you is: How many Muslims do you know?

(Knowing them from tv doesn't count.)

[kaus&Sanu 0]

So apparently there aren't any verses which show the loving and forgiving god that Allah is.

Sura 4 - An-Nisa (MADINA) : Verse 110

If anyone does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah's forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Sura 3 - Al-E-Imran (MADINA) : Verse 159

It is part of the Mercy of Allah that thou dost deal gently with them. Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted they would have broken away from about thee; so pass over (their faults), and ask for (Allah's) forgiveness for them; and consult them in affairs (of moment). Then when thou hast taken a decision, put thy trust in Allah. For Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him).

Sura 2 - Al-Baqara (MADINA) : Verse 199

Then pass on at a quick pace from the place whence it is usual for the multitude so to do and ask for Allah's forgiveness. For Allah is Oft Forgiving Most Merciful.

Sura 4 - An-Nisa (MADINA) : Verse 106

But seek the forgiveness of Allah; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Sura 64 - At-Taghabun (MAKKA) : Verse 17

If ye loan to Allah a beautiful loan He will double it to your (credit), and He will grant you Forgiveness: for Allah is most Ready to appreciate (service) Most Forbearing―

there are many but it is all thru the quran there is not just a verse or chapter on it ........

sara

Good job, Sara... though i'm not sure it will do much good as this conversation has officially gone in the toilet. People believe what they want to and then won't budge even when reasonable discussion and exchange comes a'knocking. Apparently Joe missed that every single Surah in the Qur'an, every single one, begins with : "In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful."

Dear Joe,

My one question to you is: How many Muslims do you know?

(Knowing them from tv doesn't count.)

Yes, awesome Sara!

Alhayatzween, Man, I would just drop it... there's no way your going to be able to reason with someone like him...

[BishopMnA 0]

So apparently there aren't any verses which show the loving and forgiving god that Allah is.

Sura 4 - An-Nisa (MADINA) : Verse 110

If anyone does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah's forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Sura 3 - Al-E-Imran (MADINA) : Verse 159

It is part of the Mercy of Allah that thou dost deal gently with them. Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted they would have broken away from about thee; so pass over (their faults), and ask for (Allah's) forgiveness for them; and consult them in affairs (of moment). Then when thou hast taken a decision, put thy trust in Allah. For Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him).

Sura 2 - Al-Baqara (MADINA) : Verse 199

Then pass on at a quick pace from the place whence it is usual for the multitude so to do and ask for Allah's forgiveness. For Allah is Oft Forgiving Most Merciful.

Sura 4 - An-Nisa (MADINA) : Verse 106

But seek the forgiveness of Allah; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Sura 64 - At-Taghabun (MAKKA) : Verse 17

If ye loan to Allah a beautiful loan He will double it to your (credit), and He will grant you Forgiveness: for Allah is most Ready to appreciate (service) Most Forbearing―

there are many but it is all thru the quran there is not just a verse or chapter on it ........

sara

Good job, Sara... though i'm not sure it will do much good as this conversation has officially gone in the toilet. People believe what they want to and then won't budge even when reasonable discussion and exchange comes a'knocking. Apparently Joe missed that every single Surah in the Qur'an, every single one, begins with : "In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful."

Dear Joe,

My one question to you is: How many Muslims do you know?

(Knowing them from tv doesn't count.)

Yes, awesome Sara!

Alhayatzween, Man, I would just drop it... there's no way your going to be able to reason with someone like him...

You may be right. There was a severe hijacking of this thread yesterday!

However, prior to that, I found 'portions' of this thread to be quite valuable. Thank you to the contribution VJers who were willing to discuss openly

Soffiya's last post is quite interesting (Pat R / Bible) and could be an entire semester's class of learning. It points to a good theme, essentially that the bible (and Koran) must be read and studied through the Spirit in its entiretly, not selectively disassembled into a bunch of free-standing verses. The latter is dangerous...in my opinion.

Peace,

Mark

[AlHayatZween 2]

You may be right. There was a severe hijacking of this thread yesterday!

However, prior to that, I found 'portions' of this thread to be quite valuable. Thank you to the contribution VJers who were willing to discuss openly

Soffiya's last post is quite interesting (Pat R / Bible) and could be an entire semester's class of learning. It points to a good theme, essentially that the bible (and Koran) must be read and studied through the Spirit in its entiretly, not selectively disassembled into a bunch of free-standing verses. The latter is dangerous...in my opinion.

Peace,

Mark

[Danno 1,228]

So apparently there aren't any verses which show the loving and forgiving god that Allah is.

Sura 4 - An-Nisa (MADINA) : Verse 110

If anyone does evil or wrongs his own soul but afterwards seeks Allah's forgiveness, he will find Allah Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

Sura 3 - Al-E-Imran (MADINA) : Verse 159

It is part of the Mercy of Allah that thou dost deal gently with them. Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted they would have broken away from about thee; so pass over (their faults), and ask for (Allah's) forgiveness for them; and consult them in affairs (of moment). Then when thou hast taken a decision, put thy trust in Allah. For Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him).

Sura 2 - Al-Baqara (MADINA) : Verse 199

Then pass on at a quick pace from the place whence it is usual for the multitude so to do and ask for Allah's forgiveness. For Allah is Oft Forgiving Most Merciful.

Sura 4 - An-Nisa (MADINA) : Verse 106

But seek the forgiveness of Allah; for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Sura 64 - At-Taghabun (MAKKA) : Verse 17

If ye loan to Allah a beautiful loan He will double it to your (credit), and He will grant you Forgiveness: for Allah is most Ready to appreciate (service) Most Forbearing―

there are many but it is all thru the quran there is not just a verse or chapter on it ........

sara

Good job, Sara... though i'm not sure it will do much good as this conversation has officially gone in the toilet. People believe what they want to and then won't budge even when reasonable discussion and exchange comes a'knocking. Apparently Joe missed that every single Surah in the Qur'an, every single one, begins with : "In the name of Allah, the most gracious, the most merciful."

Dear Joe,

My one question to you is: How many Muslims do you know?

(Knowing them from tv doesn't count.)

Yes, awesome Sara!

Alhayatzween, Man, I would just drop it... there's no way your going to be able to reason with someone like him...

You may be right. There was a severe hijacking of this thread yesterday!

However, prior to that, I found 'portions' of this thread to be quite valuable. Thank you to the contribution VJers who were willing to discuss openly

Peace,

Mark

Does that include Joe, he too seemed to discuss quite openly and though most disagreed, I bet he was speaking his views sincerely?

I don't often make comments about specifics of others faith, if I have very little training in it.

Some of you folks Don't like Joes comments but really.... we have heard these exact type of

Comments about Catholics and Christians and I never hear anyone bothered by that.

I suppose it's because Christians and modern day Catholics, in my view seem the be the least Knowledgeable about their faith,

when their faith is being misrepresented.... they often times don't know enough to even be aware of it.

Actually, I applaud my fellow Muslim VJ'ers who gave it right back to Joe, people should stand up for their faith.... or they really don't much of one.

All and All, Joe never got personal and didn't seem to want to do anymore than express his concerns about Islam.... and what is wrong with that, ...if others have the chance to respond as they did?

Some of us say we are for freedom of speech...... but I don't know.

[meowmeowmeow 0]

You aren't going to get me to back down by calling me prejudice. Thats a "shut-up" tactic that has never worked on me. Liberals love to do it. Whenever they can't refute something they call someone racist, bigoted, or prejudice. Nothing was cherry-picked as the tree is still loaded with hundreds more. Even if 100% of the verses said the same thing, you'd have the same argument. So it wouldn't matter.

BIGOT + PREJUDICE + RACIST = Conservative winning a debate with a Liberal.

dude, sorry but you are a total tool. if you can't see a reason for people to still belong to this faith, and also not acknowledge the fact that thousands of people convert to islam willingly every year, then perhaps you need to read stuff and consider the context of which all these chapters and texts were written.

broadly speaking, religion sucks and i can name a bunch of reasons for this. people become like sheep, they are confined to one particular way of thinking, there are some rules that work for some but don't work for others, you don't know if God exists or not and you don't know if all these stories from these books are real or not, etc.

on the flip side, that's where faith comes in. you use your logic and intellect and do your research and then believe.

if you want to believe in something that's fine. but you don't really have any credible arguments for why you think islam is such a horrible faith. i posted a freaking novel of stuff from the bible and basically pwned you, the three main monotheistic religions all have more similarities than differences if anything, theyre all just different ways to God. you do your thing, people do their thing. if you truly followed your own faith, you'd love/respect everyone regardless of their faith as Jesus did and go on your way. but i digress.

[meowmeowmeow 0]

No concessions - completion of the law through Christ. Islam does not afford such forgiveness. Therefore, since the only way one can know for sure if they are going to paradise is to be a martyr, it makes muslims obligated to that around the world. As is proven by the worldwide violence in Islam's name.

oh puhleez, terrorists use islam as a tool for themselves to feel better about their actions. politics is a major factor among other things when it comes to such hate-filled activities. islam doesn't tell a person to blow themselves up, and this is a discussion that i'd rather not start now.