Reform? Why do we need health-care reform? Everything is just fine the way it is.

[mendeleev 69]

There does seem to be a lot of opposition around here to health care reform. Its gotten me thinking.

Maybe there is something fundamental here in the USA that means we cannot run a cost-effective, healthcare system that delivers a high level of care to people in this country. Maybe it really is better that we pay twice as much of national income and get one of the worst (probably the worst) result of any developed, western democracy. Maybe, if we were to adopt something like the French, German, Australian, Japanese, or Canadian system of healthcare, our society would crash down around us. Maybe we just don't have the resilience, initiative, persistence, or creativity of people in those nations.

Maybe it is better for us to keep the terrible deal we have now.

But ... I don't think so.

[scandal 951]

Lets see, a minority are having trouble getting Health insurance So we must ditch the system that is working for most people.

UNder this logic we should all give up the free market system with housing too ..... since there are still a number of homeless people and apparently the number is growing.

HOUSING IS A BASIC RIGHT!

pizza is a basic human right. i want my rights!

I frankly do not understand the logic of this argument - addressed to Marc, Danno, Charles ... all of you who seem to feel that universal health coverage is somehow setting a new precedent of co-opting you to pay for a service that only "others" are benefiting from.

I can appreciate that you may want to dispute whether a particular form of health care reform is preferable to another, or whether reform itself is even needed (I think it's patently obvious that reform is urgently needed, but let's grant that this may be fairly disputed).

What I don't understand is how anyone can argue that there's some dangerous precedent involved in a compulsory participatory plan. We have many other compulsory participatory plans in this country - everything from Social Security to Medicare to unemployment insurance to consumption taxes to income taxes to property taxes (paid directly by homeowners, indirectly by renters). The basic social contract of an organized society is that we grant government limited taxation authority in return for services rendered to the public at large. The cry of Founders wasn't "No taxation" - it was "No taxation without representation". Nobody particularly likes paying taxes (or fees, or any compulsory wage garnishment) but we recognize that our society is built on such revenue redistribution.

Besides which, all this talk of "making you pay" for someone else's healthcare is still missing the mark. All of the proposals in Congress and being proposed by the Administration are championing the principle that if you like your current private health plan - you are free to keep it. No one is forcing you to adopt a plan you don't like instead of one you are happy with.

[DEDixon 39]

I especially like how, in our country, we pay about double for health care and live shorter lives than people in most other developed countries.

That's USA at its best, #1!

Well, you are forgetting that the USA has McDonalds and the like and lots of processed/microwavable food in the freezer section of the grocery store.

Developing nations are still eating natural food.

Americans go make themselves fat and disgusting and then go to the doctor for health care. Actually, all the while visiting the doctor for health issues, they are still eating the same #######. No health system in the world can right this wrong and none should be geared for such.

For those that have traveled outside America, to one of these developing nations, how many times did you see a gigantic person on a motorized cart in the grocery store, any store?

By the way, if anyone wants to lose wgt, it is easy. Eat what was available in the USA in 1940 meaning mostly natural food, home cooked food, no frozen microwavable food, and yeah, you can eat pizza if you make it from scratch.

(I didn't read all the posts before posting, sorry if I'm repeating a theme)

Edited August 3, 2009 by DEDixon

[Ban Hammer 14,668]

Lets see, a minority are having trouble getting Health insurance So we must ditch the system that is working for most people.

UNder this logic we should all give up the free market system with housing too ..... since there are still a number of homeless people and apparently the number is growing.

HOUSING IS A BASIC RIGHT!

pizza is a basic human right. i want my rights!

I frankly do not understand the logic of this argument - addressed to Marc, Danno, Charles ... all of you who seem to feel that universal health coverage is somehow setting a new precedent of co-opting you to pay for a service that only "others" are benefiting from.

I can appreciate that you may want to dispute whether a particular form of health care reform is preferable to another, or whether reform itself is even needed (I think it's patently obvious that reform is urgently needed, but let's grant that this may be fairly disputed).

What I don't understand is how anyone can argue that there's some dangerous precedent involved in a compulsory participatory plan. We have many other compulsory participatory plans in this country - everything from Social Security to Medicare to unemployment insurance to consumption taxes to income taxes to property taxes (paid directly by homeowners, indirectly by renters). The basic social contract of an organized society is that we grant government limited taxation authority in return for services rendered to the public at large. The cry of Founders wasn't "No taxation" - it was "No taxation without representation". Nobody particularly likes paying taxes (or fees, or any compulsory wage garnishment) but we recognize that our society is built on such revenue redistribution.

Besides which, all this talk of "making you pay" for someone else's healthcare is still missing the mark. All of the proposals in Congress and being proposed by the Administration are championing the principle that if you like your current private health plan - you are free to keep it. No one is forcing you to adopt a plan you don't like instead of one you are happy with.

along with it, military retirees see their premiums jacked up 12 times.....and i worked for 20 years to earn that military benefit. now something similar is gonna be instituted and make service in the military worthless in regards to retirement benefits.

Edited August 3, 2009 by charles!

[SpiritAlight 1]

*thinks back to the past before processed foods, before preservatives, before hormones and pesticides, when people were a nomadic lot and walked a lot*

people died pretty damn early back then.

hippie idiocy does not equal health care reform

Uhm, if you were slinging that at me, I will have you know that I am no hippie and actually no label would describe me.

So please do not try and attempt to box me into some idea you may have.

Second:

you can totally eat like I described if you opened your eyes and read labels.

Better yet, do not read labels and bye real food....not packaged.

How hard is that?

Hmmm?

[rebeccajo 14]

I hate to remind all of you who complain about 'paying for someone else's care' of a tiny little factoid.

IF YOU HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE NOW, YOU ARE ALREADY DOING THAT.

[SpiritAlight 1]

FYI The U.S. has government run medicare.

[DEDixon 39]

There does seem to be a lot of opposition around here to health care reform. Its gotten me thinking.

Maybe there is something fundamental here in the USA that means we cannot run a cost-effective, healthcare system that delivers a high level of care to people in this country. Maybe it really is better that we pay twice as much of national income and get one of the worst (probably the worst) result of any developed, western democracy. Maybe, if we were to adopt something like the French, German, Australian, Japanese, or Canadian system of healthcare, our society would crash down around us. Maybe we just don't have the resilience, initiative, persistence, or creativity of people in those nations.

Maybe it is better for us to keep the terrible deal we have now.

But ... I don't think so.

Twice? You have a link to that "fact?"

Those other systems? Can you detail them for us, each of them. Are you a world health care analyst? I mean, the only way I'd know anything about ALL of those systems would be if it were my job. Do you know as much about the banking systems in each country? Why not? I mean, if you know the health care systems so well, why not the banking, or transportation or education. Maybe you are a world health care analyst. I doubt people who work in the US health system know the systems of the French, German, Australian, Japanese and Canadian so I wonder why/how you know so much.

How much of GDP does each of these countries spend on health care? Do they have a separate system for the elderly?

[DEDixon 39]

45 million Americans ate at McDonalds today

• 12 million more than the population of Canada (32.2 million)

• Nearly 5 million more than the population of Spain (40.2 million)

• 20 million more than the population of Iraq (24.7 million)

• Nearly five times more than the number of Americans living with cancer (9.2 million in 2001)

• 2.5 times higher than the number of Americans with diabetes (18.2 million in 2002)

• 7 million more people than those living with HIV throughout the world (38 million)

[rebeccajo 14]

45 million Americans ate at McDonalds today

• 12 million more than the population of Canada (32.2 million)

• Nearly 5 million more than the population of Spain (40.2 million)

• 20 million more than the population of Iraq (24.7 million)

• Nearly five times more than the number of Americans living with cancer (9.2 million in 2001)

• 2.5 times higher than the number of Americans with diabetes (18.2 million in 2002)

• 7 million more people than those living with HIV throughout the world (38 million)

Yay! You read my signature!

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I hate to remind all of you who complain about 'paying for someone else's care' of a tiny little factoid.

IF YOU HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE NOW, YOU ARE ALREADY DOING THAT.

Their objection has nothing to do with not wanting to pay for others. It has everything to do with their contempt for the people they imagine will benefit from this.

[rebeccajo 14]

I hate to remind all of you who complain about 'paying for someone else's care' of a tiny little factoid.

IF YOU HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE NOW, YOU ARE ALREADY DOING THAT.

Their objection has nothing to do with not wanting to pay for others. It has everything to do with their contempt for the people they imagine will benefit from this.

Oh that's right. I forgot.

Everybody who doesn't earn as much as they do.

Boo hoo.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Shiftless lazy welfare liberals.

[SuperDuper! 230]

Healthcare system is fine in US.

People under socialized health care just die in the waiting room...

Edited August 3, 2009 by itzallgood

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Healthcare system is fine in US.

People under socialized health care just die in the waiting room...

Then why aren't life expectancies in Canada lower than those in the US?