Lt. Watada is a real deal hero

[tmma 467]

Wow. Just read the whole thread. There are a million points made here that make my blood boil, but in short, I can't believe how many people actually argue that following orders is following orders, under all circumstances in the military. It's attitudes like these that are slowly (well, quickly) smothering dissent in this country--doesn't sound like upholding the Constitution very well to me.

Well, we are already an increasingly fascist state, might as well incorporate all components of a good one.

*Now see more clearly why my boyfriend wants all future kids to attend schools outside the US, where they will not be indoctrinated with this BS POV.

The military is NOT just like "any old job" you cannot pick and choose what you do-you can't- and you agree to that when you enlist/receive your commission.

No one in their right mind likes war! However, what would have happened if the officers in the military had said " no I don't want to go to Korea" ;"No we do not want to fight Japan"or "No-we do not want to go Europe/N Africa to fight Germany"

The world may be alittle different than it is today.

...Just a thought.

I said one post; and here I am again.

[Ban Hammer 12,901]

I don't know, I don't want my tax dollars going to fund people who are trained not to think for themselves.

then surely you must be all up in arms about our welfare system

To know when to follow an order and when not to. Clearly, it is within reason to follow an order of waking up at a regulated time. That is hardly relevant to the discussion.

to know when to follow an order or when not to is taught to every person in the military. it's one thing to be told to go mop the floor. that's a lawful order. it's another to be told to go kill everyone in the village. it's all part of the training. what you don't want is someone questioning whether they should "take that hill" in the heat of battle.

also Charles you're right, and I especially that your opinion was more nuanced-- not everyone's was. The bold part was sort of a 'nutshell' simplification. No need to take it all literally.

avoid nutshells. i don't recall anyone saying or even hinting that following orders should be done blindly in the previous posts.

Edited July 10, 2006 by charlesandnessa

[Alex+R 0]

God, I love how in fashion it is to bash the USA....

Maybe wherever you are. In most of the country it's much more convenient and *ahem* fashionable to accept whatever is shoved down your throat by mainstream media (who I've worked for--no, not as a journalist--and see bias in every day).

I would never bash my country. I love this country. I am disgusted with my government. Big distinction, one many people fail to make.

It's the military, get real. They are based on orders. They know that going in. Dissent and doing your 'own thing' could get people killed. Get your head out of the clouds and think for a second.

Jeeez people....I mean really.

Um, I don't mean "doing your own thing" when it puts others' lives in danger in a combat situation, as Steven and Jinky already pointed out. I think you are getting a bit too emotional. And realistically, this guy was not doing that, and any argument to the contrary is ridiculous; he's on US soil. He also believed that what he was doing was in violation of his oath. I come from a military family. Guess how many of our officers chose to retire under this administration?

This is like arguing abortion though, as someone else mentioned, and I've got other things to do.

Whether he was right or wrong is not something either of us probably knows. Gandhi stood up for his unpopular beliefs this way; so did Hitler.

[Artegal 1]

it is your duty to abide by the laws

and regulations governed by the UCMJ, 24 hours a

day, 7 days a week, for as long as you are in the

Army. All persons in the military service are required

to strictly obey and promptly execute the legal orders

of their lawful seniors. ---Headquarters United States Army, Soldier's Handbook Vol I.

[*Robert* 2]

I don't know, I don't want my tax dollars going to fund people who are trained not to think for themselves. To know when to follow an order and when not to.

Then try this on for size:

The conduct of members of the United States Military is governed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice. All articles of the code pertaining to failure to obey orders reference "lawful orders" only.

"Just following orders" is not an acceptable defense for a US military member accused of violating the law. US military members are only obligated to follow lawful orders, and are required to disregard and report an unlawful order.

All US military personnel receive annual training in the Law of Armed Conflict, which delineates lawful and unlawful behaviors during armed conflicts, and is derived from the Geneva Conventions, a subset of international law. This training is designed to ensure that US military personnel are familiar with their military, ethical and legal obligations during wartime.

Totally blows your argument out of the water.

[tmma 467]

God, I love how in fashion it is to bash the USA....

Maybe wherever you are. In most of the country it's much more convenient and *ahem* fashionable to accept whatever is shoved down your throat by mainstream media (who I've worked for--no, not as a journalist--and see bias in every day).

I would never bash my country. I love this country. I am disgusted with my government. Big distinction, one many people fail to make.

It's the military, get real. They are based on orders. They know that going in. Dissent and doing your 'own thing' could get people killed. Get your head out of the clouds and think for a second.

Jeeez people....I mean really.

Um, I don't mean "doing your own thing" when it puts others' lives in danger in a combat situation, as Steven and Jinky already pointed out. I think you are getting a bit too emotional. And realistically, this guy was not doing that, and any argument to the contrary is ridiculous; he's on US soil. He also believed that what he was doing was in violation of his oath. I come from a military family. Guess how many of our officers chose to retire under this administration?

This is like arguing abortion though, as someone else mentioned, and I've got other things to do.

Whether he was right or wrong is not something either of us probably knows. Gandhi stood up for his unpopular beliefs this way; so did Hitler.

Yeh, and Hitler would have won if the officers back then were like this guy!

Think on that...

Edited July 10, 2006 by tmma

[Fandango 1,439]

God, I love how in fashion it is to bash the USA....

Maybe wherever you are. In most of the country it's much more convenient and *ahem* fashionable to accept whatever is shoved down your throat by mainstream media (who I've worked for--no, not as a journalist--and see bias in every day).

I would never bash my country. I love this country. I am disgusted with my government. Big distinction, one many people fail to make.

It's the military, get real. They are based on orders. They know that going in. Dissent and doing your 'own thing' could get people killed. Get your head out of the clouds and think for a second.

Jeeez people....I mean really.

Um, I don't mean "doing your own thing" when it puts others' lives in danger in a combat situation, as Steven and Jinky already pointed out. I think you are getting a bit too emotional. And realistically, this guy was not doing that, and any argument to the contrary is ridiculous; he's on US soil. He also believed that what he was doing was in violation of his oath. I come from a military family. Guess how many of our officers chose to retire under this administration?

This is like arguing abortion though, as someone else mentioned, and I've got other things to do.

Whether he was right or wrong is not something either of us probably knows. Gandhi stood up for his unpopular beliefs this way; so did Hitler.

I'm not emotional at all, I just find it incredibly ridiculous to suggest that the military not have to follow orders, or that officers or even anyone get to cherrypick what they follow and what they dont. Logistically, it'd be a nightmare with no order whatsoever.

This guy put his whole sqaud/platoon/whatever in danger when he decided to have a 'moral problem' the second his azz was on the line. He's a coward. That's that. And anti-Iraq people are using this guy as the poster boy for Honor and Integrity and that's just obscenely laughable, yet disgusting at the same time. And I love the buzzwords 'mainstream media' 'shove down throats' etc....

Being ordered to kill a village is wrong...being deployed to Iraq is not. I think you all are blurring the line of reality a bit. OH I am an idividual! Just like everyone else!!! Hear me roar!!!

War is hell. Military life is hell. You don't want to be ordered around? Dont' join the military. I love the way you said 'oh i don't want my tax dollars doing this...' when it's clear you don't have the first clue how the military works. But that's ok, you go do whatever it is that you feel you need to do while the real heroes get deployed to chitholes that they don't want to be in. But they follow an oath they took, and they go...

Next military training exercise: when to whip out the silly string......in the arts and crafts room, if you'd like to join us.

[Artegal 1]

What's with this Abortion Analogy. I don't see this issue at all being like Abortion.

There is not any women being sworn to accept and have an abortion. No body has a job at getting pregnant and then aborting a fetus. We don't have an army of Abortionist.

We do have an army of military volunteer professionals that are trained and prepared for battle. They are not trained as members of congress, the court, philosophers, or even as a clergy (exception to the chaplains corps). They are trained to fight wars and follow lawful military orders. If someone wants to make a political or religious statements then they should find the appropriate forum for such actions. Joining the military and then deciding to make a stand against a certain military action is not what one should do. One should have stayed out of the military and joined a political action group or written letters to congress.

[YnaYeBa0808 0]

noooooooo not the arts and crafts room!!!!!!!!!!

[Joel Halfwassen 0]

War is hell. Military life is hell. You don't want to be ordered around? Dont' join the military. I love the way you said 'oh i don't want my tax dollars doing this...' when it's clear you don't have the first clue how the military works. But that's ok, you go do whatever it is that you feel you need to do while the real heroes get deployed to chitholes that they don't want to be in. But they follow an oath they took, and they go...

Or an even more important part of their job is to allow the rest of us to sleep well at night.

Joel

[Fandango 1,439]

next deployment....the beach....who's up for it?

Sun sea sand...sign up sheet in the mess hall!

last one there buys the beer!

[YnaYeBa0808 0]

next deployment....the beach....who's up for it?

Sun sea sand...sign up sheet in the mess hall!

last one there buys the beer!

just beer okay? no white russians please!!!!!!! IM IN!

[Fandango 1,439]

S&J where are ya? Just saw that you were posting, and now you've gone!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

S&J where are ya? Just saw that you were posting, and now you've gone!

awwww...Lisa, you miss me don't you? hehehe... I never imagined this post would be so divisive.

I just stand behind my contention that being heroic means to stand up for ones convictions no matter how unpopular it might be and especially when it means you could lose everything. In my opinion and obviously that requires me to take a leap of faith and believe Lt. Watada's intentions are true, that what he did was heroic. Fishdude made a good comment about just what the term 'hero' means. I'm using it here because many people have a narrow understanding of what it means. I think everyone here has made some valid points and I want everyone to know that I respect those views. I hope you can respect mine even if we disagree.

That is all for now...I'm putting this post to rest. Good show to all! Cheers!

Edited July 10, 2006 by Steven_and_Jinky

[Fandango 1,439]

Awww the ole cut & run....Watada would be proud