Yay for Texas!!!

[mawilson 2,133]

I heard it was Jesus Juice.

Or for short, Jesuice.

which bible version is that one in?

Mark 1:1

[Peikko 1,575]

Actually, what I would like to see taught is a proper appreciation of ethics. It is quite possible to teach an ethical structure that precludes reference to any god that allows humans to interact respectfully and responsibly. That way, the 'my god says this, your god says that' could be bypassed for those occasions when one's gods are not the same.

Teaching ethics opens up a whole new can of worms. What's considered ethical here may not be considered ethical somewhere else. It's hard to make students understand that when they're too busy texting each other during class.

No, ethical standards are not really fluid in this way. They do not depend on personal opinion.

I don't mean personal opinion. Each culture has a different set of values, social norms and ethics. Whether or not we think another culture is justified in doing whatever it does is irrelevant. We have no more control over them than they do over us. Teaching children that there's one set of ethics is just as damaging as teaching there's one religion.

Ethics are not based on cultural values. I don't know what you think ethics are, but they are not ephemeral in the way you suggest. If you take a basic premise, all humans are born equal and free you can build a complete set of ethical rules that flow logically from this premise. To have any other premise is to have a built bias, which is not ethical.

And you honestly think that any country teaching ethics won't have a built-in bias?

If you understand what I said then you will equally understand that what is culturally normal in any given society is irrelevant.

[HAL 9000 96]

I would rather see critical thinking taught in schools. Outside of school Children and adults can address their spirituality in whichever fashion suits them best.

The problem with teaching critical thinking is that the teachers have to understand it.

Why oh freaking why do people constantly bash teachers on VJ? I am so freaking tired of it. It is possible for teachers to be intelligent, highly educated, good at their jobs, and successful in the classroom. Sometimes I get the feeling that people on here think ALL teachers are dumbazzes.

You're right -- there are some very smart and capable teachers available. In fact, I know a few (although they eventually quit teaching due to all the restrictions placed upon them by school administrations).

I suppose my lack of faith in teachers stems from the fact they very few people want to teach nowadays. The pay is lousy, you have to deal with children or teenagers, there's virtually no respect given, limitless administrative #######, and tons of restrictions resulting in little-to-no control over the classroom.

I still loved it while I taught. I will likely do it again at the end of my career.

The rewards are worth the effort.

[Peikko 1,575]

I heard it was Jesus Juice.

Or for short, Jesuice.

which bible version is that one in?

Mark 1:1

Do we really need another version of religion? It's a money making venture though, I'll give you that

[DeadPoolX 9]

Actually, what I would like to see taught is a proper appreciation of ethics. It is quite possible to teach an ethical structure that precludes reference to any god that allows humans to interact respectfully and responsibly. That way, the 'my god says this, your god says that' could be bypassed for those occasions when one's gods are not the same.

Teaching ethics opens up a whole new can of worms. What's considered ethical here may not be considered ethical somewhere else. It's hard to make students understand that when they're too busy texting each other during class.

No, ethical standards are not really fluid in this way. They do not depend on personal opinion.

I don't mean personal opinion. Each culture has a different set of values, social norms and ethics. Whether or not we think another culture is justified in doing whatever it does is irrelevant. We have no more control over them than they do over us. Teaching children that there's one set of ethics is just as damaging as teaching there's one religion.

Ethics are not based on cultural values. I don't know what you think ethics are, but they are not ephemeral in the way you suggest. If you take a basic premise, all humans are born equal and free you can build a complete set of ethical rules that flow logically from this premise. To have any other premise is to have a built bias, which is not ethical.

And you honestly think that any country teaching ethics won't have a built-in bias?

If you understand what I said then you will equally understand that what is culturally normal in any given society is irrelevant.

Wrong. That's simply western society believing it is superior and us enforcing our ways of thinking on others. We can't do that.

Just because we believe something is ethical that doesn't mean we have the right to tell others what they should do and how they should do it. We have no business and certainly no authority in other nations or with other cultures. To tell how to think is as bad as telling them what religion they should believe in.

All we'd end up doing is replacing one narrow viewpoint for another. That won't help matters at all.

[jundp 191]

Jen there are tons of really awesome teachers, but we only ever hear about the horrible ones

I know. But it's annoying as hell to hear constant bashing. Did no one on this site ever have a good education experience?

teacher, leave them kids alone!

If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding, Charles

I had great teachers who inspired me to be a great teacher. Maybe the difference is that I don't have a grad degree in education, but rather in my field?

But I know a ton of really great teachers. I'm just surprised at so many with bad education experiences I guess.

Hal - actually, all teachers *are* dumb. We just hide it behind a large vocabulary that only other teachers know.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Here's a good summary about ethics.

Ethics is two things.

First, ethics refers to well based standards of right and wrong that prescribe what humans ought to do, usually in terms of rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues. Ethics, for example, refers to those standards that impose the reasonable obligations to refrain from rape, stealing, murder, assault, slander, and fraud. Ethical standards also include those that enjoin virtues of honesty, compassion, and loyalty. And, ethical standards include standards relating to rights, such as the right to life, the right to freedom from injury, and the right to privacy. Such standards are adequate standards of ethics because they are supported by consistent and well founded reasons.

Secondly, ethics refers to the study and development of one's ethical standards. As mentioned above, feelings, laws, and social norms can deviate from what is ethical. So it is necessary to constantly examine one's standards to ensure that they are reasonable and well-founded. Ethics also means, then, the continuous effort of studying our own moral beliefs and our moral conduct, and striving to ensure that we, and the institutions we help to shape, live up to standards that are reasonable and solidly-based.

[Peikko 1,575]

Actually, what I would like to see taught is a proper appreciation of ethics. It is quite possible to teach an ethical structure that precludes reference to any god that allows humans to interact respectfully and responsibly. That way, the 'my god says this, your god says that' could be bypassed for those occasions when one's gods are not the same.

Teaching ethics opens up a whole new can of worms. What's considered ethical here may not be considered ethical somewhere else. It's hard to make students understand that when they're too busy texting each other during class.

No, ethical standards are not really fluid in this way. They do not depend on personal opinion.

I don't mean personal opinion. Each culture has a different set of values, social norms and ethics. Whether or not we think another culture is justified in doing whatever it does is irrelevant. We have no more control over them than they do over us. Teaching children that there's one set of ethics is just as damaging as teaching there's one religion.

Ethics are not based on cultural values. I don't know what you think ethics are, but they are not ephemeral in the way you suggest. If you take a basic premise, all humans are born equal and free you can build a complete set of ethical rules that flow logically from this premise. To have any other premise is to have a built bias, which is not ethical.

And you honestly think that any country teaching ethics won't have a built-in bias?

If you understand what I said then you will equally understand that what is culturally normal in any given society is irrelevant.

Wrong. That's simply western society believing it is superior and us enforcing our ways of thinking on others. We can't do that.

Just because we believe something is ethical that doesn't mean we have the right to tell others what they should do and how they should do it. We have no business and certainly no authority in other nations or with other cultures. To tell how to think is as bad as telling them what religion they should believe in.

All we'd end up doing is replacing one narrow viewpoint for another. That won't help matters at all.

Wrong again. As I stated, ethics are founded on a basic premise - all people are born free and equal. Any other premise will produce biased results. It has nothing to do with culture or religion or nationality.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Here's a good summary about ethics.

Ethics is two things.

First, ethics refers to well based standards of right and wrong that prescribe what humans ought to do, usually in terms of rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues. Ethics, for example, refers to those standards that impose the reasonable obligations to refrain from rape, stealing, murder, assault, slander, and fraud. Ethical standards also include those that enjoin virtues of honesty, compassion, and loyalty. And, ethical standards include standards relating to rights, such as the right to life, the right to freedom from injury, and the right to privacy. Such standards are adequate standards of ethics because they are supported by consistent and well founded reasons.

Secondly, ethics refers to the study and development of one's ethical standards. As mentioned above, feelings, laws, and social norms can deviate from what is ethical. So it is necessary to constantly examine one's standards to ensure that they are reasonable and well-founded. Ethics also means, then, the continuous effort of studying our own moral beliefs and our moral conduct, and striving to ensure that we, and the institutions we help to shape, live up to standards that are reasonable and solidly-based.

You know that's not true for every culture and every nation in the world. What're we going to do? Go on a "crusade" to teach others what's "right and wrong?" Hey.. that sounds a lot like another institution. What's it called? Oh yeah: religion.

[HAL 9000 96]

Jen there are tons of really awesome teachers, but we only ever hear about the horrible ones

I know. But it's annoying as hell to hear constant bashing. Did no one on this site ever have a good education experience?

teacher, leave them kids alone!

If you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding, Charles

I had great teachers who inspired me to be a great teacher. Maybe the difference is that I don't have a grad degree in education, but rather in my field?

But I know a ton of really great teachers. I'm just surprised at so many with bad education experiences I guess.

Hal - actually, all teachers *are* dumb. We just hide it behind a large vocabulary that only other teachers know.

That must explain the constant pushing back from those illiterate to the science talk. Oh snap I just pwned myself by that logic!

[Peikko 1,575]

Here's a good summary about ethics.

Ethics is two things.

First, ethics refers to well based standards of right and wrong that prescribe what humans ought to do, usually in terms of rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues. Ethics, for example, refers to those standards that impose the reasonable obligations to refrain from rape, stealing, murder, assault, slander, and fraud. Ethical standards also include those that enjoin virtues of honesty, compassion, and loyalty. And, ethical standards include standards relating to rights, such as the right to life, the right to freedom from injury, and the right to privacy. Such standards are adequate standards of ethics because they are supported by consistent and well founded reasons.

Secondly, ethics refers to the study and development of one's ethical standards. As mentioned above, feelings, laws, and social norms can deviate from what is ethical. So it is necessary to constantly examine one's standards to ensure that they are reasonable and well-founded. Ethics also means, then, the continuous effort of studying our own moral beliefs and our moral conduct, and striving to ensure that we, and the institutions we help to shape, live up to standards that are reasonable and solidly-based.

You know that's not true for every culture and every nation in the world. What're we going to do? Go on a "crusade" to teach others what's "right and wrong?" Hey.. that sounds a lot like another institution. What's it called? Oh yeah: religion.

You don't understand it do you, genuinely? You honestly believe that basing a standard of morality on the premise of being born equal and free is a cultural phenomena. There is no where to go with this as until you realise that such a premise is the only unbiased premise then there is no reasoning with you.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Here's a good summary about ethics.

Ethics is two things.

First, ethics refers to well based standards of right and wrong that prescribe what humans ought to do, usually in terms of rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues. Ethics, for example, refers to those standards that impose the reasonable obligations to refrain from rape, stealing, murder, assault, slander, and fraud. Ethical standards also include those that enjoin virtues of honesty, compassion, and loyalty. And, ethical standards include standards relating to rights, such as the right to life, the right to freedom from injury, and the right to privacy. Such standards are adequate standards of ethics because they are supported by consistent and well founded reasons.

Secondly, ethics refers to the study and development of one's ethical standards. As mentioned above, feelings, laws, and social norms can deviate from what is ethical. So it is necessary to constantly examine one's standards to ensure that they are reasonable and well-founded. Ethics also means, then, the continuous effort of studying our own moral beliefs and our moral conduct, and striving to ensure that we, and the institutions we help to shape, live up to standards that are reasonable and solidly-based.

You know that's not true for every culture and every nation in the world. What're we going to do? Go on a "crusade" to teach others what's "right and wrong?" Hey.. that sounds a lot like another institution. What's it called? Oh yeah: religion.

You don't understand it do you, genuinely? You honestly believe that basing a standard of morality on the premise of being born equal and free is a cultural phenomena. There is no where to go with this as until you realise that such a premise is the only unbiased premise then there is no reasoning with you.

Hey, that's neat! I was about to post the same thing about you.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Here's a good summary about ethics.

Ethics is two things.

First, ethics refers to well based standards of right and wrong that prescribe what humans ought to do, usually in terms of rights, obligations, benefits to society, fairness, or specific virtues. Ethics, for example, refers to those standards that impose the reasonable obligations to refrain from rape, stealing, murder, assault, slander, and fraud. Ethical standards also include those that enjoin virtues of honesty, compassion, and loyalty. And, ethical standards include standards relating to rights, such as the right to life, the right to freedom from injury, and the right to privacy. Such standards are adequate standards of ethics because they are supported by consistent and well founded reasons.

Secondly, ethics refers to the study and development of one's ethical standards. As mentioned above, feelings, laws, and social norms can deviate from what is ethical. So it is necessary to constantly examine one's standards to ensure that they are reasonable and well-founded. Ethics also means, then, the continuous effort of studying our own moral beliefs and our moral conduct, and striving to ensure that we, and the institutions we help to shape, live up to standards that are reasonable and solidly-based.

You know that's not true for every culture and every nation in the world. What're we going to do? Go on a "crusade" to teach others what's "right and wrong?" Hey.. that sounds a lot like another institution. What's it called? Oh yeah: religion.

Well here's the rest of the article:

A few years ago, sociologist Raymond Baumhart asked business people, "What does ethics mean to you?" Among their replies were the following:

"Ethics has to do with what my feelings tell me is right or wrong."

"Ethics has to do with my religious beliefs."

"Being ethical is doing what the law requires."

"Ethics consists of the standards of behavior our society accepts."

"I don't know what the word means."

These replies might be typical of our own. The meaning of "ethics" is hard to pin down, and the views many people have about ethics are shaky.

Like Baumhart's first respondent, many people tend to equate ethics with their feelings. But being ethical is clearly not a matter of following one's feelings. A person following his or her feelings may recoil from doing what is right. In fact, feelings frequently deviate from what is ethical.

Nor should one identify ethics with religion. Most religions, of course, advocate high ethical standards. Yet if ethics were confined to religion, then ethics would apply only to religious people. But ethics applies as much to the behavior of the atheist as to that of the saint. Religion can set high ethical standards and can provide intense motivations for ethical behavior. Ethics, however, cannot be confined to religion nor is it the same as religion.

Being ethical is also not the same as following the law. The law often incorporates ethical standards to which most citizens subscribe. But laws, like feelings, can deviate from what is ethical. Our own pre-Civil War slavery laws and the apartheid laws of present-day South Africa are grotesquely obvious examples of laws that deviate from what is ethical.

Finally, being ethical is not the same as doing "whatever society accepts."In any society, most people accept standards that are, in fact, ethical. But standards of behavior in society can deviate from what is ethical. An entire society can become ethically corrupt. Nazi Germany is a good example of a morally corrupt society.

Moreover, if being ethical were doing "whatever society accepts," then to find out what is ethical, one would have to find out what society accepts. To decide what I should think about abortion, for example, I would have to take a survey of American society and then conform my beliefs to whatever society accepts. But no one ever tries to decide an ethical issue by doing a survey. Further, the lack of social consensus on many issues makes it impossible to equate ethics with whatever society accepts. Some people accept abortion but many others do not. If being ethical were doing whatever society accepts, one would have to find an agreement on issues which does not, in fact, exist.

Some examples please Mr Deadpool, rather than the usual round of non-specific relativisms.

[Peikko 1,575]

Explain the bias of the premise that all humans are presumed to be born free and equal and maybe we have a basis for argument. Until then, we do not.

[jundp 191]

That must explain the constant pushing back from those illiterate to the science talk. Oh snap I just pwned myself by that logic!