Musings for a Wednesday

[CanAmCharlotte 0]

I was just putting together my N-400 package and had this thought.....if the contents of one's I-751 package are intended to prove to the USCIS that the marriage is bona fide through documents showing co-mingled finances, etc., what are the contents of the naturalization package supposed to prove? I mean other than the required documents like the US spouse's birth certificate, divorce decrees, etc. (which were given at the K-1/K-3/CR-1 application stage), they again ask for tax returns, bank statements, mortgage documents, etc. I honestly don't know what they are really trying to determine that hasn't already been determined at some other stage of the immigration process. It just seems like a lot of duplication of effort here. Honestly, after the ROC, they should just charge us a fee for the interview/civics test and naturalization certificate and welcome us into the fold!

Obviously I'm going to comply with all the requirements but I was just pondering this.......

Care to weigh in?

[seldommseene 0]

I was just putting together my N-400 package and had this thought.....if the contents of one's I-751 package are intended to prove to the USCIS that the marriage is bona fide through documents showing co-mingled finances, etc., what are the contents of the naturalization package supposed to prove? I mean other than the required documents like the US spouse's birth certificate, divorce decrees, etc. (which were given at the K-1/K-3/CR-1 application stage), they again ask for tax returns, bank statements, mortgage documents, etc. I honestly don't know what they are really trying to determine that hasn't already been determined at some other stage of the immigration process. It just seems like a lot of duplication of effort here. Honestly, after the ROC, they should just charge us a fee for the interview/civics test and naturalization certificate and welcome us into the fold!

Obviously I'm going to comply with all the requirements but I was just pondering this.......

Care to weigh in?

I have often wondered the same thing. When you file for your AOS you send a whole lot of info and then as you are removing conditions you resend the same info plus the additional two years since and then have to resend the same stuff all over again some months later. How many trees can one kill!

I wish they had a central system that scanned all the paperwork and they can just go back in and review as needed. I guess they just want to make the process as difficult and complicated as possible to weed people out. But what do we know! We're the immigrants right

Edited July 8, 2009 by seldommseene

[J&D 0]

Ours is not to reason why....cos if we were to try to figure it all out, we'd go nuts.

[Minya's wife 24]

I was just putting together my N-400 package and had this thought.....if the contents of one's I-751 package are intended to prove to the USCIS that the marriage is bona fide through documents showing co-mingled finances, etc., what are the contents of the naturalization package supposed to prove? I mean other than the required documents like the US spouse's birth certificate, divorce decrees, etc. (which were given at the K-1/K-3/CR-1 application stage), they again ask for tax returns, bank statements, mortgage documents, etc. I honestly don't know what they are really trying to determine that hasn't already been determined at some other stage of the immigration process. It just seems like a lot of duplication of effort here. Honestly, after the ROC, they should just charge us a fee for the interview/civics test and naturalization certificate and welcome us into the fold!

Obviously I'm going to comply with all the requirements but I was just pondering this.......

Care to weigh in?

The documents needed for a citizenship application are sent to prove residency and thereby prove eligibility to apply for said citizenship. The focus is no longer on a valid marriage, but rather on the petitioner proving that he's resided in the US continuously for the length of time necessary (3 years if applying based on an ongoing marriage, 5 years for other). The timeline for ROC and eligibility to apply for citizenship can often blend together due to the length of time it can take to go through ROC, but the focus of the two applications are completely different. They require different adjudications as well. I realize it may seem like you're submitting duplicates of things, but remember that each petition, from the original visa to the N-400 is treated as a separate application, and while the previous petitions are looked at as part of the adjudication process, the petition in question is judged on its merit.....ergo the need to include all evidence requested each time.

-P

[jsnearline 2]

I beg to differ. According to the I-659 checklist the focus is on residency and marital union if applying under the three year rule. The stuff they look for to prove marital union is pretty much the same stuff they want to remove conditions.

[lucyrich 19]

I beg to differ. According to the I-659 checklist the focus is on residency and marital union if applying under the three year rule. The stuff they look for to prove marital union is pretty much the same stuff they want to remove conditions.

But valid ongoing marital union isn't exactly what they're looking for in removal of conditions. In removal of conditions, they want to be sure the marriage wasn't entered for the purpose of evading immigration law. In naturalization, they want to make sure the marriage is still ongoing for the required time period.

A couple who married with good intentions, but whose marriage had turned sour and was on the verge of breaking up could be approved for removal of conditions, even if they were living separately (as long as they were still speaking enough that the USC spouse would agree to help file a joint petition). That same couple might not be approved for naturalization under the three year rule.

It's true that they're similar, but not quite the same. A bona fide couple who is still together may use the same exact evidence to prove both points, but the points being proved are slightly different.

I'll also point out that, at the naturalization interview, the adjudicator will have a copy of your A file, which includes all the paperwork you've submitted to them, for the I-751 and earlier.

[karenros 0]

Hi Jo ann,

I am karen roslund and i also live in the charlotte area and was planning to send in my application... I have been procastinating for a long to take a picture of me so that i can send my application....

I will be sending 2 pictures,

copy of my green card

husband Birth certificate

marriage certificate,

some bills,

mortgage and bank statements

and turbox tax returns for last 3 yrs

and ofcourse the check...

Can we have our picture taken with our earings on?? Cause i think i remember reading somewhere that we cannot wear our earings for pictures for the USCIS?

Thanks,

Karen

[CanAmCharlotte 0]

Hi Jo ann,

I am karen roslund and i also live in the charlotte area and was planning to send in my application... I have been procastinating for a long to take a picture of me so that i can send my application....

I will be sending 2 pictures,

copy of my green card

husband Birth certificate

marriage certificate,

some bills,

mortgage and bank statements

and turbox tax returns for last 3 yrs

and ofcourse the check...

Can we have our picture taken with our earings on?? Cause i think i remember reading somewhere that we cannot wear our earings for pictures for the USCIS?

Thanks,

Karen

Karen,

I took my earrings off although the place where I got my picture taken seemed clued out about the rule. Funny, in one of the websites that I found showing acceptable USCIS passport-style photos, the women all had earrings! Be safe, take them off. I think you can have them on for the passport (I'll have to double check when the time comes. I'm naked without my earrings!!!)

[CanAmCharlotte 0]

Thanks to all who responded. Funny how they don't come right out and say exactly what they are trying to determine with each application. Well maybe they do and I'm just too thick to figure it out! In addition to listing all the types of documents they want at each phase, it might be beneficial to say upfront something like "...the adjudicator of your application needs to determine if you, the immigrant applicant, has lived in the US with your spouse without prolonged breaks for X years".

[karenros 0]

when was your 10 year green card approved???

[Minya's wife 24]

I beg to differ. According to the I-659 checklist the focus is on residency and marital union if applying under the three year rule. The stuff they look for to prove marital union is pretty much the same stuff they want to remove conditions.

I'm sorry, but what petition is the I-659...I don't see it on the "Immigration Forms" listed on the USCIS website.

As I stated before, each application/petition is taken on its own, and adjudicated as such. The onus is always on the applicant to prove eligibility of said benefit, whether its the 'benefit' of a green card, removal of conditions or citizenship. I agree that in the course of spousal immigration you end up sending a lot of documents as duplicates (or multiples if you receive RFE's for information already sent) but in the greater scheme of things it does come down to the fact that immigration is a privilege afforded to a group of people that meet a certain criteria...it is not an right.

-P

[Minya's wife 24]

Thanks to all who responded. Funny how they don't come right out and say exactly what they are trying to determine with each application. Well maybe they do and I'm just too thick to figure it out! In addition to listing all the types of documents they want at each phase, it might be beneficial to say upfront something like "...the adjudicator of your application needs to determine if you, the immigrant applicant, has lived in the US with your spouse without prolonged breaks for X years".

It is actually stated...in the "Who may file form___" section of the instructions. In principle, what they are looking for with each petition is that the applicant meets the eligibility criteria for filing said form. The adjudication process, because its performed by humans, is where subjectivity comes into play. That's why some adjudicators will be satisfied with a "sample" of joint bank account statements while others will want to see the statement for every month you've been married. It is what it is....

[lucyrich 19]

Thanks to all who responded. Funny how they don't come right out and say exactly what they are trying to determine with each application. Well maybe they do and I'm just too thick to figure it out! In addition to listing all the types of documents they want at each phase, it might be beneficial to say upfront something like "...the adjudicator of your application needs to determine if you, the immigrant applicant, has lived in the US with your spouse without prolonged breaks for X years".

That information is in the INA and in 8 CFR, as both are interpreted by the courts and by USCIS procedures. Good luck figuring it out.

They're always trying to determine whether you're eligible for a benefit, but the exact criteria for eligibility as they apply to a particular case can get mighty fuzzy sometimes. That's why it's good to have knowledgable legal advice on your side, either from a lawyer or from self-study.

Besides, if they told you EXACTLY what they were looking for, then they'd be telling the ineligible ones EXACTLY what to lie about. In most cases, the eligibility criteria aren't a big secret, but nevertheless I've heard more than one story about a person in an interview slipping up and answering a question truthfully that revealed ineligibility.

[NickD 202]

Whatever their reasons, you have to more than comply with their requests if you want USC and answer all questions with 100% honesty.

Besides listing the trips, organizations, updating the addresses and the employment and sending the same old evidence they already have, (we updated the I-751 at the same time in hopes they would know we were still alive and waiting with our latest proof), only new thing we added was a joint utility bill from information from my wife's friend that also sent a ton of evidence, but got an RFE for a utility bill. We were already prepared for that.

Then it's all over.

[antda 13]

Hi CanAmCharlotte and Everyone,

I totally agree with the "lots of duplication of effort here"...What's the point in resubmitting evidence that one has submitted already over the course of many years? You would think that they would keep the past paperwork on file and just use that for the information, and require one to only submit current paperwork.....I guess not then...

Are they testing us on how effective we can keep and send in paperwork for many years?..

Congrats on turning people into compulsive paper pack-rats!

Just give us the certificate already!!!! (and quit charging such high fees in the process too).....

But then again, we all have to remember that the USCIS has a lot of incompentent workers. And over the years, files get misplaced, not looked at, thrown away, set aside, blah...So of course, we have to start the process all over again for each stage of the immigration game, like our files and past cases never existed before.....

This is of course causes a lot of frustration in gathering the paperwork all over again, having to send it, and them having to read it all over again. Oh the many tress killed in the process for paper (as another VJer noted too)!

On the bright side, at least you have the paperwork from the past already (lol..that is, unless you threw it out and have to search for it all over again, but I'm sure you know better than that...), so that should be a no-brainer to re-duplicate the stuff that was already sent in many years ago...

As well, this paperwork can also be seen as an advantage in proving real marriages versus false/fake ones. For if a couple has enough paperwork financial-wise and personal-wise, then surely they must be real, right? (either that, or they are really good fraudsters who can forge documents...but that of course would be a crime...)...

Then I also think: We paid them in ridiculious high fees...they should get their work done. And if it means looking at paperwork my case all day, then fine....I'm paying you to look at my paperwork....Look at it! If they want the paperwork, load them with the paperwork! You waste my time and money, I waste yours!..Fair is fair....

Bring on the paperwork! I've got nothing to hide! I'm ready to win the next stage of the immigration citizenship game!...

Are you all ready too? Good luck in preparing evidence for your immigration journeys too.

Ant (Winning with paperwork!...)

I was just putting together my N-400 package and had this thought.....if the contents of one's I-751 package are intended to prove to the USCIS that the marriage is bona fide through documents showing co-mingled finances, etc., what are the contents of the naturalization package supposed to prove? I mean other than the required documents like the US spouse's birth certificate, divorce decrees, etc. (which were given at the K-1/K-3/CR-1 application stage), they again ask for tax returns, bank statements, mortgage documents, etc. I honestly don't know what they are really trying to determine that hasn't already been determined at some other stage of the immigration process. It just seems like a lot of duplication of effort here. Honestly, after the ROC, they should just charge us a fee for the interview/civics test and naturalization certificate and welcome us into the fold!

Obviously I'm going to comply with all the requirements but I was just pondering this.......

Care to weigh in?