Iran Election

[sandinista! 1,816]

why is this a big deal though? what aggressive action has the iranian republic ever taken against the us in the last 25 years? even if they acquired nuclear capabilities, there's no reason in the world to think they'd ever use them. an autocracy's biggest objective is to stay in power, and it's rather difficult to do that when they've been nuked into oblivion (which would surely be the retaliation used against them if they ever deigned to use nuclear weapons on any of their avowed enemies). how emboldened could they possibly be, in light of that?

Isn't it all about Israel? - which I do not understand why we protect/support.

Yes the concern stems from the statements issued by the current president elect saying he wants to wipe the US and Israel off the map. The US supports Israel because of the holocaust and a long diplomatic relationship with them and the formation of their state. The US has a deep bond with them and diplomatic relations with them.

actually he said "een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad." (this regime occupying Jerusalem must [vanish from] the page of time).

the us was never included in that commentary olivia, at least not outside of your imagination.

just this week, the secretary of state of this country met up with the vile avigdor lieberman. this guy is a real charmer:

"He once proposed bombing the huge Aswan dam, an act that would have caused a terrible Tsunami-like deluge and killed many millions of Egyptians. Another time he proposed delivering an ultimatum to the Palestinians: At 8 am we shall bomb your commercial centers, at noon your gas stations, at 2 pm your banks, and so on.

He has proposed drowning thousands of Palestinian prisoners, offering to provide the necessary buses to take them to the coast. Another time he proposed deporting 90% of the 1.2 million Arab citizens of Israel."-http://www.theseminal.com/2009/04/05/lieberman-if-you-want-peace-prepare-for-war/

but God forbid an israeli meeting with our secretary of state should be held up to the same scrutiny as a misquoted ahmadinejad. the us needs to take that "deep bond" and "diplomatic relations" with this vile regime and shove it.

vile regime

You commented about Avigdor Liberman -- a man I do not support and whose views I do not agree with.

You then extrapolated from the words of this one man and refer to a nation of 7 million people as a "vile regime". Most of whom do not share his views and find him repugnant.

This is a nation based upon the rule of law, with a vibrant democracy, open elections, and a free press. In contrast to Iran, and in contrast to virtually every other country in the region.

It is a nation who's Palestinian Arab citizens (both Muslim and Christian), Druse citizens, and Beduin citizens vote in elections and have representation in the Knesset, and have press and media outlets in their language and representing their views. Note - I will not state that their lives are ideal and that there is no room for improvement. Certainly the per capita income in the Arab Israeli community should be higher, access and funding for municipal services, healthcare, and education should be higher than they are. But there is a level of freedom and openness that all Israeli citizens - Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druse and others - enjoy, which no other country in the Middle East has. Ask an Israeli Arab how quickly they'd like to exchange their life for that of any other country in the region. I think you know the answer to that question.

Finally, you (chemaatah) brought Israel into this discussion. What does Israel have to do with Iranian domestic politics? Absolutely nothing.

Suppose Israel did not exist (something I'm sure you would be overjoyed to see happen).

Do you suppose that Iranians would not be concerned with their desire for freedom? With their stagnant economy? With the political corruption and cronyism of their regime? This has absolutely nothing to do with Israel.

i'm not the one who brought up israel. someone else did. i merely commented on olivia's hilarious post, where she answered the first person to bring up israel. someone who was not me.

it should be completely obvious that i'm quite aware that there are many who do not agree with avigdor lieberman in israel-the article i quoted was written by uri avnery, an israeli jew.

what i was responding to was the laughable notion that the united states shares some kind of special, unique relationship with israel because supposedly they are sooo different. avigdor lieberman's statements are the moral equivalent of the garbage uttered by ahmadinejad. but only one is demonized, while the other enjoys an audience with the united states' secretary of state. there's something very wrong there. clearly avigdor lieberman is somebody of importance though, even if you or uri avnery doensn't like him-the united states secretary of state does not meet with nobodies.

i don't think the entire nation of israel is tainted by the likes of avigdor lieberman and those who condone and support him. just like the entire nation of iran is not tainted by the likes of ahmadinejad and those who support him. but if you think americans should be reminded that "The calls in the mosques for "Death to America" and "Death to Israel" will unfortunately likely continue, no matter how this gets resolved." well so should we be reminded that our secretary of state is meeting with a man who wants to bomb the aswan dam and murder millions of civilians. but we can have a perfectly normal diplomatic relationship with his country. if we should be reminded that "... the nuclear policies will continue unabated" then we should also be reminded of mordechai vanunu. i don't see why iran should not have the same normalized relations. they are not a threat to the united states.

[sandinista! 1,816]

Finally, you (chemaatah) brought Israel into this discussion. What does Israel have to do with Iranian domestic politics? Absolutely nothing.

Suppose Israel did not exist (something I'm sure you would be overjoyed to see happen).

Do you suppose that Iranians would not be concerned with their desire for freedom? With their stagnant economy? With the political corruption and cronyism of their regime? This has absolutely nothing to do with Israel.

Your assessment is spot on, Scandal. To trivial, unthinking minds everything from pimples in their teen years to failing a college entrance exam can be traced back to Israel. It really is getting old at this point. And Israel has absolutely nothing to do with whats going on in Iran. Islamists and their crimes against humanity however, have everything to do with the turmoil in Iran going all the way back to their conquest of the Persian empire. The people of Iran got rid of the Shah because they wanted more freedom and instead they got a corrupt, murderous regime that is guilty of oppressing the people to a greater degree and killing more people than the Shah ever did. The people's misery and discontent has been growing for the past 30 years just waiting for the necessary stimulus to boil over into the streets. The candidates in the election were irrelevant. The people are jaded and have no faith in revolutions anymore. What they had hoped for were to elect progressively more liberal leaders that would gradually introduce more reforms and freedoms until one day they finally end up with a secular state. The election fraud dashed those hopes and proved once and for all that the backwards, power-mad Islamists would never release their grip on power and would only continue introducing more restrictions on the people. So the people's frustration with the entire institution of the Islamic regime and a desire for a secular government that they could never before dare to express finally spilled over into the streets. Hopefully, the people will get their wish and the Islamists will be charged and held accountable for their crimes.

while other trivial, unthinking minds blame everything from an ####### abscess to their car breaking down on the interstate on "islamists". i wish you could see the irony in you, of all people, writing this, because it's awfully funny.

why is this a big deal though? what aggressive action has the iranian republic ever taken against the us in the last 25 years? even if they acquired nuclear capabilities, there's no reason in the world to think they'd ever use them. an autocracy's biggest objective is to stay in power, and it's rather difficult to do that when they've been nuked into oblivion (which would surely be the retaliation used against them if they ever deigned to use nuclear weapons on any of their avowed enemies). how emboldened could they possibly be, in light of that?

Isn't it all about Israel? - which I do not understand why we protect/support.

Yes the concern stems from the statements issued by the current president elect saying he wants to wipe the US and Israel off the map. The US supports Israel because of the holocaust and a long diplomatic relationship with them and the formation of their state. The US has a deep bond with them and diplomatic relations with them.

actually he said "een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad." (this regime occupying Jerusalem must [vanish from] the page of time).

the us was never included in that commentary olivia, at least not outside of your imagination.

just this week, the secretary of state of this country met up with the vile avigdor lieberman. this guy is a real charmer:

"He once proposed bombing the huge Aswan dam, an act that would have caused a terrible Tsunami-like deluge and killed many millions of Egyptians. Another time he proposed delivering an ultimatum to the Palestinians: At 8 am we shall bomb your commercial centers, at noon your gas stations, at 2 pm your banks, and so on.

He has proposed drowning thousands of Palestinian prisoners, offering to provide the necessary buses to take them to the coast. Another time he proposed deporting 90% of the 1.2 million Arab citizens of Israel."-http://www.theseminal.com/2009/04/05/lieberman-if-you-want-peace-prepare-for-war/

but God forbid an israeli meeting with our secretary of state should be held up to the same scrutiny as a misquoted ahmadinejad. the us needs to take that "deep bond" and "diplomatic relations" with this vile regime and shove it.

Right outside my imagination is your head up your butt cheematah. Here is a bit of light for you that has been all over the news since 2005: Iran's President Calls For America's Destruction; wants to wipe Israel off the map

do you have any source besides a novelist looking to sell more books? that article was a joke.

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

[Nothing1234 2]

Let's talk about the Egyptian soccer team and the prostitues...it will be a bit more fun! I promise

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Prostitutes? Last I heard was they got robbed during the Egypt vs. Italy game but never anything about prostitutes?

[doodlebugg 10]

This is a nation based upon the rule of law, with a vibrant democracy, open elections, and a free press.

Do you live on the same planet as me? Is there another country called Israel somewhere out there that has these qualities? Seriously?

Yes, we do share the same planet.

To my knowledge there is only one country on our planet called Israel.

Yes I am serious.

Do you have anything factual you'd like to challenge here? Otherwise I am at a loss in trying to understand your questions.

Just had to establish that we are both earthlings first.

I'd like to challenge the statement that Israel is a "vibrant democracy" and has a "free press".

I'll explain the democracy one first

http://www.economist.com/markets/rankings/...tory_id=8908438

Democracy index

Aug 22nd 2007

From Economist.com

There is no consensus on how to measure democracy, definitions of democracy are contested and there is an ongoing lively debate on the subject. Although the terms “freedom” and “democracy” are often used interchangeably, the two are not synonymous. Democracy can be seen as a set of practices and principles that institutionalise and thus ultimately protect freedom. Even if a consensus on precise definitions has proved elusive, most observers today would agree that, at a minimum, the fundamental features of a democracy include government based on majority rule and the consent of the governed, the existence of free and fair elections, the protection of minorities and respect for basic human rights. Democracy presupposes equality before the law, due process and political pluralism.

The part in red is what Israel does not do, protect the minorities and respect their human rights. The genocide in Gaza aside, below is proof of the fact that minorities are far from protected in Israel. BTW just google Arab Israelis and you'll find tons of other sources proving this as well.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/01/22/64765.html

Despite having a distinct national, ethnic, religious, cultural and linguistic character, Arab Israelis are treated as second-class citizens.

“Discrimination is regularly apparent in state resource allocations in every field, and Palestinian Arabs continue to be excluded from the centers of power and underrepresented in decision-making public institutions, and in the general public sphere,” Yousef Jabareen, law lecturer at Haifa University and director of the Nazareth-based Arab Center for Law and Policy told AlArabiya.net

For one, Arabic is banned from all areas of the public sector in order to preserve the “Jewish character” of Israel, although its official primary languages are Hebrew and Arabic.

“Something as simple as street names cannot be printed in Arabic, because this would somehow reduce the “Jewishness” of Israel’s public space,” said Jabareen.

Michele Sharkasi, an Arab Israeli who preferred not to give her real name, told AlArabiya.net she felt uncomfortable with national symbols like the flag, with a Star of David, and the anthem, which speaks of the "Jewish soul."

"These were made and meant for the Jews, not for the Arab minority," she said. "If Israel wants to integrate us fully, then we need an anthem and flag that can do that."

I guess if you meant that Israel has a vibrant racist democracy I'd have agreed with you.

Now the free press issue is wicked easy. Is a country that forbids news agencies into Gaza while they are bombing the fk out of them a country that endorses free press?

Edited June 22, 2009 by humpkinpumpkin

[scandal 951]

Bridget,

I am willing to continue this discussion with you, so long as it remains civil (which so far, I believe it is).

We obviously have very different feelings about a subject known to be exceedingly volatile.

However - I believe that the only way peace and reconciliation are possible in that part of the world is through dialogue.

In that spirit, I am quite willing to engage in dialogue with you. We are unlikely to change each others' minds, at least not in major ways.

But if even in small ways we can learn new things, and consider new approaches, perhaps something may be gained.

I would request that the discussion be reopened in a new thread specifically on the subject of Israel and the Palestinians. This could be in MENA or in OT, whichever you prefer. I would rather we not do it here, since this is ostensibly a thread about the situation in Iran, which really has nothing to do with Israel and the Palestinians.

You make numerous charges in your post, and have provided some citations regarding those. I will respond, but perhaps later tonight after I get home from work.

If you want to copy your post to the top of a new thread in the meanwhile that would be great.

I ask you to please keep in mind that in our discussion, we are both human beings with our own thoughts and feelings, and should respect each other as we would ourselves wish to be treated.

You are now on record as stating that you believe Israel is a racist state. By extension, it is quite likely that you will view me as a racist, given that I hold Israeli citizenship and by and large support Israel. I note that you have NOT made any such charge against me, and I do appreciate that. I also have similarly made no charges whatsoever against you - I don't know you, and for all I know you are a warm and wonderful person (I have every reason to believe you are). I do feel already on the defensive simply because of how this discussion is characterized - you are challenging "my peeps" as racist, and I need to defend against that challenge.

As long as we remain civil, this should work out fine.

Ron

[anitacastillo 0]

This is a nation based upon the rule of law, with a vibrant democracy, open elections, and a free press.

Do you live on the same planet as me? Is there another country called Israel somewhere out there that has these qualities? Seriously?

Yes, we do share the same planet.

To my knowledge there is only one country on our planet called Israel.

Yes I am serious.

Do you have anything factual you'd like to challenge here? Otherwise I am at a loss in trying to understand your questions.

Just had to establish that we are both earthlings first.

I'd like to challenge the statement that Israel is a "vibrant democracy" and has a "free press".

I'll explain the democracy one first

http://www.economist.com/markets/rankings/...tory_id=8908438

Democracy index

Aug 22nd 2007

From Economist.com

There is no consensus on how to measure democracy, definitions of democracy are contested and there is an ongoing lively debate on the subject. Although the terms “freedom” and “democracy” are often used interchangeably, the two are not synonymous. Democracy can be seen as a set of practices and principles that institutionalise and thus ultimately protect freedom. Even if a consensus on precise definitions has proved elusive, most observers today would agree that, at a minimum, the fundamental features of a democracy include government based on majority rule and the consent of the governed, the existence of free and fair elections, the protection of minorities and respect for basic human rights. Democracy presupposes equality before the law, due process and political pluralism.

The part in red is what Israel does not do, protect the minorities and respect their human rights. The genocide in Gaza aside, below is proof of the fact that minorities are far from protected in Israel. BTW just google Arab Israelis and you'll find tons of other sources proving this as well.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/01/22/64765.html

Despite having a distinct national, ethnic, religious, cultural and linguistic character, Arab Israelis are treated as second-class citizens.

“Discrimination is regularly apparent in state resource allocations in every field, and Palestinian Arabs continue to be excluded from the centers of power and underrepresented in decision-making public institutions, and in the general public sphere,” Yousef Jabareen, law lecturer at Haifa University and director of the Nazareth-based Arab Center for Law and Policy told AlArabiya.net

For one, Arabic is banned from all areas of the public sector in order to preserve the “Jewish character” of Israel, although its official primary languages are Hebrew and Arabic.

“Something as simple as street names cannot be printed in Arabic, because this would somehow reduce the “Jewishness” of Israel’s public space,” said Jabareen.

Michele Sharkasi, an Arab Israeli who preferred not to give her real name, told AlArabiya.net she felt uncomfortable with national symbols like the flag, with a Star of David, and the anthem, which speaks of the "Jewish soul."

"These were made and meant for the Jews, not for the Arab minority," she said. "If Israel wants to integrate us fully, then we need an anthem and flag that can do that."

I guess if you meant that Israel has a vibrant racist democracy I'd have agreed with you.

Now the free press issue is wicked easy. Is a country that forbids news agencies into Gaza while they are bombing the fk out of them a country that endorses free press?

:thumbs: Thanks Bridget!

It was me that first brought up Israel -- and I still don't get why the US supports them. How many of my tax dollars go there to support this govt and its actions??? :angry:

[doodlebugg 10]

Bridget,

I am willing to continue this discussion with you, so long as it remains civil (which so far, I believe it is).

We obviously have very different feelings about a subject known to be exceedingly volatile.

However - I believe that the only way peace and reconciliation are possible in that part of the world is through dialogue.

In that spirit, I am quite willing to engage in dialogue with you. We are unlikely to change each others' minds, at least not in major ways.

But if even in small ways we can learn new things, and consider new approaches, perhaps something may be gained.

I would request that the discussion be reopened in a new thread specifically on the subject of Israel and the Palestinians. This could be in MENA or in OT, whichever you prefer. I would rather we not do it here, since this is ostensibly a thread about the situation in Iran, which really has nothing to do with Israel and the Palestinians.

You make numerous charges in your post, and have provided some citations regarding those. I will respond, but perhaps later tonight after I get home from work.

If you want to copy your post to the top of a new thread in the meanwhile that would be great.

I ask you to please keep in mind that in our discussion, we are both human beings with our own thoughts and feelings, and should respect each other as we would ourselves wish to be treated.

You are now on record as stating that you believe Israel is a racist state. By extension, it is quite likely that you will view me as a racist, given that I hold Israeli citizenship and by and large support Israel. I note that you have NOT made any such charge against me, and I do appreciate that. I also have similarly made no charges whatsoever against you - I don't know you, and for all I know you are a warm and wonderful person (I have every reason to believe you are). I do feel already on the defensive simply because of how this discussion is characterized - you are challenging "my peeps" as racist, and I need to defend against that challenge.

As long as we remain civil, this should work out fine.

Ron

Hey Ron, definitely keepin' it civil. I tend to joke a lot to relieve stress so don't misconstrue that as dissin' ya. As for a separate thread, I think I'll pass. Seriously it won't do anything but raise my bloodpressure which is already too high to start with. There have been many many many threads on the issue and unless something new happens I just don't want to spend the time or energy. Maybe someone else would like to.

Oh and I don't think that all Israeli citizens are racist at all. I hope that people don't think that ALL Americans are warmongers either. It's the government I have a problem with is all but seriously I don't want to go into it because it puts me in a wicked bad mood which then rolls over on to my husband when he gets home from work which means that his dinner won't be so great at all putting him in a bad mood which means no nookie tonight which means we'll both go to bed angry which means I will wake up in a p!ss poor mood and probably get into an accident on the way to work, etc. etc. It just wouldn't be good.

peace

[scandal 951]

Hey Ron, definitely keepin' it civil. I tend to joke a lot to relieve stress so don't misconstrue that as dissin' ya. As for a separate thread, I think I'll pass. Seriously it won't do anything but raise my bloodpressure which is already too high to start with. There have been many many many threads on the issue and unless something new happens I just don't want to spend the time or energy. Maybe someone else would like to.

Oh and I don't think that all Israeli citizens are racist at all. I hope that people don't think that ALL Americans are warmongers either. It's the government I have a problem with is all but seriously I don't want to go into it because it puts me in a wicked bad mood which then rolls over on to my husband when he gets home from work which means that his dinner won't be so great at all putting him in a bad mood which means no nookie tonight which means we'll both go to bed angry which means I will wake up in a p!ss poor mood and probably get into an accident on the way to work, etc. etc. It just wouldn't be good.

peace

Hi Bridget,

I can certainly handle jokes, in the right context. I've been known to tell a few myself.

If you don't want to start a separate thread, that's perfectly fine. We can let the matter drop here. I don't need to go out of my way to prove any points, but on the other hand I tend not to let challenging statements go unanswered, particularly on areas that I fee strongly about.

I am very glad to know that you differentiate between the actions and views of a government, and those of its individual citizens. There are things the Israeli government does which I am personally not comfortable with. On the other hand I will to my last breath support and defend the right of Israel to exist as a proud and free nation within secure and well-defined borders - just as all other recognized nations of the Earth are able to do. Notwithstanding that right, I fully recognize the legitimate rights and aspirations of the Palestinians to a state of their own as well. My hope is that one day a two-state solution can emerge in which BOTH peoples fully recognize each others legitimate aspirations and needs, and are able to find a territorial compromise on the small bit of contested territory they both call home.

Regarding your evening plans with your husband.... that did bring a chuckle ... enjoy!

If you feel up to it, here are some links you might want to check out regarding Arab Israeli active participation in the democratic process. There are 3 political parties who have Arab MKs (Members of Knesset). Here are the Wikipedia articles regarding them. Each of these parties of course also has its own website in Arabic to reach out to its voters and define its policies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Arab_List

The United Arab List (Arabic: ألقائمة العربية الموحدة‎, al-Qā'imah al-'Arabiyyah al-Muwaẖadah; Hebrew: רשימה ערבית מאוחדת‎, Reshima Aravit Meuhedet), commonly known in Israel by its Hebrew acronym Ra'am (Hebrew: רע"ם‎), is a political party representing and supported by Israeli Arabs. It is not related to the original United Arab List which existed in the late 1970s and early 1980s.

Its constituency consists mostly of religious or nationalist Israeli Arabs, and enjoys particular popularity among the Bedouin - in the 2009 elections, 80% of residents of Bedouin communities voted for party.[4] The Islamic Movement also operates in poor Arab towns and villages, as well as in Bedouin settlements, to mobilize voters. The southern faction of the Islamic Movement is now the dominant force in the party, whilst other factions include the Arab National Party.

Current MKs: Ibrahim Sarsur , Taleb el-Sana, Masud Ghnaim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balad_(political_party)

Balad (Hebrew: בל"ד‎, an acronym for Brit Le'umit Demokratit (Hebrew: ברית לאומית דמוקרטית‎, lit. National Democratic Assembly); Arabic: التجمع الوطني الديمقراطي‎, al-Tajamu' al-Watani al-Dīmūqrati or بلد, lit. Hometown) is an Israeli Arab political party in Israel led by Jamal Zahalka.[1] It is sometimes called the "National Democratic Alliance".[2]

Balad is an Arab nationalist political party,[3][4] whose stated purpose is the 'struggle to transform the state of Israel into a democracy for all its citizens, irrespective of national or ethnic identity.'[5] Balad also demands that the state of Israel recognize Palestinian Arabs as a national minority, entitled to all rights that come with that status including autonomy in education, culture and media.

Relations with Iran

Balad party strongly supports the current Islamist regime in Iran and its determination to develop the Iranian nuclear program. Haneen Zuabi, a member of Knesset from Balad said in March 2009 that she was not worried about the prospect of Iran acuiring nuclear weapons. Instead she exressed hope that nuclear-armed Iran will become a counter-power to Israel. Mrs Zuabi also welcomed Iran's growing influence on Palestinian affairs, stating Iran has played a more beneficial role in region than Jordan and Egypt, because it stood more firmly "against occupation than a lot of the Arab countries".

On January 12, 2009, Balad was disqualified from the 2009 Israeli elections by the Central Elections Committee by a vote of 26 to three, with one abstention. It was disqualified on grounds that it does not recognize the State of Israel and calls for armed conflict against it. Zahalka argued that the decision was related to Operation Cast Lead, and said that he is not surprised by it "because the vote was taken for political motives due to the war atmosphere... The committee members sought to increase their popularity at our expense on the backdrop of the elections".[1] On January 19, Attorney General Menachem Mazuz, said that he saw no grounds to prevent the Balad from taking part in the election, and noted that the decision was based on "flimsy evidence". On January 21, the Supreme Court of Israel overturned the Committee's decision by a majority of eight to one. Zahalka said: "Balad stands by its platform. The court's decision is a victory to the Arab public and to anyone who seeks democracy… we call on everyone to back the notion of 'a people state' and a life of equality bar discrimination".

There are currently 3 Members of the Israeli 18th Knesset from Balad - Said Naffaa Jamal Zahalka Hanin Zoabi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hadash

Hadash (Hebrew: חד"ש‎, lit. New, an acronym for HaHazit HaDemokratit LeShalom VeLeShivion (Hebrew: החזית הדמוקרטית לשלום ולשוויון‎, lit. The Democratic Front for Peace and Equality); Arabic: الجبهة الديمقراطية للسلام والمساواة‎, al-Jabhah al-Dimuqrāṭiyyah lil-Salām wa'al-Musāwah) is a far left political party in Israel. It currently has four members in the 120-seat Knesset:

1. Mohammad Barakeh , 2. Hana Sweid (since 2006), 3. Dov Khenin (since 2006), 4. Afu Agbaria (since 2009)

[Note that this is a joint Jewish/Arab party, and has 3 Arab MKs and 1 Jewish MK]

I think it's apparent here that the Israeli Arab community is offered a choice of 3 distinct parties, with different ideologies and platforms, including one (Balad) which openly calls for the replacement of Israel by a state of a vastly different character, essentially advocating the end of Israel!! While this was challenged in the courts, the fact remains that Balad stood for election and has 3 MKs seated in the Knesset. Can you just imagine a parallel situation in the USA, in which a political party called for ripping up the Constitution and redrafting the basis of the country? And still being seated in chambers? Last time I can think of when that happened was prior to the Secession of the South!

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Same day same news coming from Iran. The image of Neda's death face is spreading and they are using it as a human symbol for the revolution which I find grotesque showing the blood coming from her mouth, nose, and eyes in a computer overlayed graphic. While the death video on Youtube is disturbing I don't feel it's a flash point providing momentum for the revolution. Mousavi is staying under house arrest and able to post to his facebook to the people. The people are still cut off from facebook, twitter, and reputable news outlets yet they somehow are able to get messages out and post videos? Protests are still being held but seem more peaceful and mourning of Neda and calls for days of mourning are issued. The figures on the dead go from 17 to the 100's with no real verification as journalists are banned from covering the story in the streets as there will be sever penalties. Only the state news and citizen journalists are able to report and foreign news gets their message from the website or what people send them and talks with scholars and analysts. The story coverage is dieing down on the western foreign news but still perpetuating on the Arab news and in Obama's news conference today on the state of affairs for the US he was questions on Iran again and maintained rhetoric it's between the Iranian people and their government and nothing to do with us. I'm waiting till Friday to hear what the clerical elite have to say to the people or if there is anymore news there. The government regime maintain their position and the opposition maintain their position so everyone is laying low for now.

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

The news is saying now that the stakes are being raised and Mousavi has confirmed a demonstration scheduled for Wednesday. The Government regiem says they will set up special courts to deal with the demonstrators. The news says that Obama has condemed the actions of the Iranian government but I watched Obama say it and he was very stoic about what he was saying. Foreign countries are now pulling out their foreign diplomats from Iran. There has been an extension from the Guardian Council for the results of the investigation. Demonstrations are continuing to be held around the world infront of Iranian embassies utilizing Neda's image for freedom.

[Ban Hammer 12,861]

The news is saying now that the stakes are being raised and Mousavi has confirmed a demonstration scheduled for Wednesday. The Government regiem says they will set up special courts to deal with the demonstrators. The news says that Obama has condemed the actions of the Iranian government but I watched Obama say it and he was very stoic about what he was saying. Foreign countries are now pulling out their foreign diplomats from Iran. There has been an extension from the Guardian Council for the results of the investigation. Demonstrations are continuing to be held around the world infront of Iranian embassies utilizing Neda's image for freedom.

that sounds ominous

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

That's the different between the BBC foreign news report and a few minutes later the Al-Jazera news more local to the region. I haven't watched the news today but while we were out I did see that there is still no cancellation of the current election and no recall for a second election. Not sure how the protest demonstrations went today.

[doodlebugg 10]

My husband firmly believes that Iran will somehow be involved with the end of the world. He said it's written but of course can't show me where. Anyone else's husband/wife believe this from MENA?