Prenup... to sign or not to sign!

[Beautiful_years 0]

I just have a problem with people choosing spouses and then when things go wrong go crying to the USCIS demanding new regulations to keep them safe and not taking responsibility for their own choices and lack of care in selecting them.

The energy spend to "get even" with a foreign spouse by spending endless months complaining to the USCIS that they did not ' protect them ' from the fraudulent SO, should have been invested into getting to know and investigating the SO PRIOR to jumping into a visa petition.

Thats more like it, theres a lot of crying and blaming and then tightening conditions and making other beneficiaries look fraudulent, i think we should own up to bad choices for one, then admit to not observing the red signs on another hand. Or chulk it up as one of the sad experiences life throws.

I also agree some people can be really cunning too, be nice caring and loving, live lives for years like its a movie, and less than one year after getting here they are on the way out. Its just sad that once the conditions are lifted even a divorce wont cancel you affidavit of support so prenup or no prenup you ll still be on her list.

while discussing with friends on the issue most admits if they have their way they ll suggest a prenup for both parties well it has to meet their requirements though for certain years atleast three, so that either way we both have nothing to lose but ofcourse thats their opinion, plus it excludes everything they both worked for as a family from the spouse getting here, each can keep their inheritance or whatever they have stashed up somewhere.

It gets depressing sometimes when you read too many threads making almost every potential beneficiary a fraud in the making.

But one thing i have seen is that despite signing a prenup, the emotional trauma that goes with it hangs around a while, some let go easily while others don't.

If faced with the situation... il sign to prove my love but also for a duration we both agree on, as love means sharing, and when i say everything i mean everything, wealth and debts alike.

[Stardust72 0]

My husband (USC) ad I both had established lives when we met. I sold most of the things I had and basically came here with nothing but a bit of money and very few of my things. We discussed getting a pre nup for several reasons. We both had our reasons to want one. I would've had no problem signing one, but in the end it was our personal decision not to.

[Ta Ta 1]

I believe it would be good for us and everyone else sponsoring an immigrant to let our voices be heard by congress in regards to the length and conditions of support currently in place.

Again my emphasis being on changing the laws in effect now through the avenues available, one being through your representatives and senators. I believe the 40 work quarters which equal roughly 10 years is too long of a burden to bear for any USC in the event of divorce.

But if it stands and nothing ever changes then we must be clear headed enough to make the right choices in selecting and petitioning our mates.

True, many foreign SO's wear a disguise so cunning that few will realize the red flags dropped here and there but in the end no one is holding a gun to our heads to force us to marry someone we barely know or think we know.

And yes it is one of the blows life throws and not the responsibility of the government to protect anyone from love gone wrong, a love we freely pursued, be it sober or through rose colored glasses.

[chuckb 0]

I don't want any more regulation of my life and choices by the government than is already in place, less if I had my way! Even if it might be for my own good. Who is better qualified than myself to make decisions that affect my own life? I firmly believe that prenups are a personal choice, and should remain that way.

I decided that after two divorces and getting taken to the cleaners the second time, not that I was real happy about the first outcome either, that I would never marry again without a Prenup. If I ever married again It is just plain stupid to let the courts do to you what they do, when there is a way to avoid it.

Guess what, when I found the one I truely wanted to be with, and knew it in my heart and soul, none of the material BS mattered. We talked about the con games that do happen, and that simply didn't apply to us. No Prenup, if I hadn't been young and stupid, I would have had prenups for the first marriages.

Our relationship is based on love, understanding, and trust. It's a much better way to live than before. While I didn't realize it during the other marriages, the trust, or the love and understanding part was lacking. It takes all three ingredients to truely be happy. They say that it takes a lot of effort to make a marriage work. I say that if you really have love, understanding, and trust in a marriage the effort comes naturally. Who needs a prenup?

[Mrs. BB 0]

We have a pre nup as well as a post nup. This is due to the fact that I have children from a previous marriage and it was more for their financial protection than mine when it came down to it. I didn't marry my first husband because I thought it was going to fail. I was in love with him too and I never thought he would do the things he did and things would end the way they did.

I'm a realist about things. My husband understood this. There were no arguments or hard feelings about it either.

The fact is as much as you can love someone it doesn't change the fact that things happen. Unforeseen things happen. You go into a marriage hoping that you will both be able to overcome whatever life throws at you. But the reality of it ....and with the statistical evidence to support this....there is a high chance that no matter how hard you work at it and want it to last forever, there is a real chance it won't.

We looked at it like any other legal precaution you take. You buy house insurance in case your home burns down. You don't plan on it burning down, you hope it never will. But you protect yourself 'just in case' because you know the reality is that unforeseen things can happen. An electrical problem, a grease fire when cooking....etc.

You prepare for the worst and hope for the best. In this day and age I think it's a smart thing to do. But that's just my opinion.

[Mike&Jin 0]

Beautiful_years @ Nov 9 2008, 03:18 AM

NOTHING can kill romance faster than the word prenup. But with about one in three of all first marriages ending in divorce, and 50 percent of second or third ones hitting the skids, a prenup is smart financial planning.

Marriage is not just an emotional and physical union -- it's also a financial union. A prenup and the discussions that go with it can help ensure the financial well-being of the marriage also One option for softening the blow of a prenup is to add a "sunset clause," which specifies a time at which the contract would expire -- for example, after 5 or less years of marriage. Depending on what you both agree.

PRE-NUP - Interesting Topic.

Thoughtful comments, on both ends of the spectrum reference this important topic. We just K1'd to the US (From China-where we both lived) and got married yesterday. Yes there was a prenup!

1. As many have said, when you are young and just finishing school, no children, grandchildren, businesses, homes, assets - then the NEED for a prenup is low. The reverse of this increases the need in direct proportion to the extent of these items.

2. Some folks own businesses that have been in the family, or have trusted-loyal executives that have been promised stock on sale, profit sharing, and other property settlements. One would hardly want to abandon earlier comitments and promises and leave these people liable for a possible property battle in courts as a result of a subsequent divorce.

3. There are often children, who have resided in a "family home" for years - that have expressed a desire to continue living there....and a whole host of other property items that one does not want to have a LIABILITY from a new spouse that could end in a court battle. Loyalty to children, employees and honoring ones previous comittments and responsibilities is important.

4. There are often inheritance issues, educational funding trusts, and a whole host of entities and documents that one must "remove" the liability from anyone potentially tampering with these established items.

5. The family business (farm) scenario - where the children, aunts, uncles whomever - are a part of a privately held company -- derive there income from this business --one cannot let a subsequent divorce - cause sale or put them out of business and end their lives.

6. When one has a larger than average income from Investments, Property, and business - limitation on future earnings should, and often is outlined, limited, and dealt with before the divorce/marriage and problems. Many view that short term marriages should not result in 1/2 of these monies being awarded to one spouse, and then there is the idea espoused here that perhaps there could even be potential marriage fraud, change of heart when moving to a new country, or just plain incompatibility! Things change.

Having said all that, a prenup is not always, limiting, restricting or punitive. Many put the following in the prenup which all help to define and ensure that the potential spouse is secure:

1. An amount of money to be awarded to the spouse with less assets/income based on years of marriage or some other formula in the event of divorce.

2. All newly acquired property placed in joint ownership - specifically sharing "new life assets".

3. Joint investments, accounts, etc to be joint property - within "new life assets".

4. Outlining of Survivor Benefits, disposition of 401k, IRAs, and other things specific to maintaining security of the spouse with lessor assets/income.

5. Trust, wills, and other intentions relative to trusteeship, pour over wills, and other LLC, assets germane to the new spouse.

6. Dealing with the fact of Non-US Citizen spouse not being a USC and the very DIRE situation in terms of Estate Planning - and exclusion provisions for a USC spouse...a BIG PROBLEM IN THE US.

7. As mentioned before -- issues about debts, old/prior, and newly acquired after marriage.

All the above sounds like issues that mature, responsible, married citizens must plan for in their married life. Without consideratin of security, survivor benefits, taxation, life insurance, ownership issues, investmetns, business, income and income tax --- is to have a less than responsible approach to a complex life we all must deal with. The more money and assets you have the more complex the issue.

Let those without assets, income or prior comittments marry without the need of a prenup or consideration for the future. They can work together and build their lives and property and equally work, share, and benefit from thier own efforts.

For those that are, perhaps older, and have prior responsibilites and agreements/contracts, as well as perhaps significant assets, be responsible and ensure due diligence in terms of protecting these matters.

For those that have a need for prenup: Tell your potential spouse EARLY in the relationship that you need to have this agreement. Nothing spoils a relationship worse than 11th hour surprises. If you need one....there are sound reasons for it, and a logical mature person can understand these reasons.

Ensure that the prenup is written or each element is understood by the prospective spouse. Execute it in your legal state before marriage. Get a lawyer for your potential spouse - and a court interpreter to ensure that your potential spouse can understand EACH ELEMENT within the document - and of course notarize the signings etc. If possible, try to have the prenup executed well in advance of the marriage. For K1's this is usually not doable - but put in a clause that this has been discussed for some time, and that because of the K1 entry - and wanting to execute in the US and after entry to the US, there is NO PRessure to sign, and that all parties have been aware of the creation of the document. "I AM NOT A LAWYER AND THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE", ONLY OPINION.

Ok, too much and of course all IMHO, based on my experiences. Your mileage may vary!

Best of luck to all and may you all be happily married forever!!!!

Edited November 9, 2008 by Mike&Jin

[Ta Ta 1]

Beautiful_years @ Nov 9 2008, 03:18 AM

NOTHING can kill romance faster than the word prenup. But with about one in three of all first marriages ending in divorce, and 50 percent of second or third ones hitting the skids, a prenup is smart financial planning.

Marriage is not just an emotional and physical union -- it's also a financial union. A prenup and the discussions that go with it can help ensure the financial well-being of the marriage also One option for softening the blow of a prenup is to add a "sunset clause," which specifies a time at which the contract would expire -- for example, after 5 or less years of marriage. Depending on what you both agree.

PRE-NUP - Interesting Topic.

Thoughtful comments, on both ends of the spectrum reference this important topic. We just K1'd to the US (From China-where we both lived) and got married yesterday. Yes there was a prenup!

1. As many have said, when you are young and just finishing school, no children, grandchildren, businesses, homes, assets - then the NEED for a prenup is low. The reverse of this increases the need in direct proportion to the extent of these items.

2. Some folks own businesses that have been in the family, or have trusted-loyal executives that have been promised stock on sale, profit sharing, and other property settlements. One would hardly want to abandon earlier comitments and promises and leave these people liable for a possible property battle in courts as a result of a subsequent divorce.

3. There are often children, who have resided in a "family home" for years - that have expressed a desire to continue living there....and a whole host of other property items that one does not want to have a LIABILITY from a new spouse that could end in a court battle. Loyalty to children, employees and honoring ones previous comittments and responsibilities is important.

4. There are often inheritance issues, educational funding trusts, and a whole host of entities and documents that one must "remove" the liability from anyone potentially tampering with these established items.

5. The family business (farm) scenario - where the children, aunts, uncles whomever - are a part of a privately held company -- derive there income from this business --one cannot let a subsequent divorce - cause sale or put them out of business and end their lives.

6. When one has a larger than average income from Investments, Property, and business - limitation on future earnings should, and often is outlined, limited, and dealt with before the divorce/marriage and problems. Many view that short term marriages should not result in 1/2 of these monies being awarded to one spouse, and then there is the idea espoused here that perhaps there could even be potential marriage fraud, change of heart when moving to a new country, or just plain incompatibility! Things change.

Having said all that, a prenup is not always, limiting, restricting or punitive. Many put the following in the prenup which all help to define and ensure that the potential spouse is secure:

1. An amount of money to be awarded to the spouse with less assets/income based on years of marriage or some other formula in the event of divorce.

2. All newly acquired property placed in joint ownership - specifically sharing "new life assets".

3. Joint investments, accounts, etc to be joint property - within "new life assets".

4. Outlining of Survivor Benefits, disposition of 401k, IRAs, and other things specific to maintaining security of the spouse with lessor assets/income.

5. Trust, wills, and other intentions relative to trusteeship, pour over wills, and other LLC, assets germane to the new spouse.

6. Dealing with the fact of Non-US Citizen spouse not being a USC and the very DIRE situation in terms of Estate Planning - and exclusion provisions for a USC spouse...a BIG PROBLEM IN THE US.

7. As mentioned before -- issues about debts, old/prior, and newly acquired after marriage.

All the above sounds like issues that mature, responsible, married citizens must plan for in their married life. Without consideratin of security, survivor benefits, taxation, life insurance, ownership issues, investmetns, business, income and income tax --- is to have a less than responsible approach to a complex life we all must deal with. The more money and assets you have the more complex the issue.

Let those without assets, income or prior comittments marry without the need of a prenup or consideration for the future. They can work together and build their lives and property and equally work, share, and benefit from thier own efforts.

For those that are, perhaps older, and have prior responsibilites and agreements/contracts, as well as perhaps significant assets, be responsible and ensure due diligence in terms of protecting these matters.

For those that have a need for prenup: Tell your potential spouse EARLY in the relationship that you need to have this agreement. Nothing spoils a relationship worse than 11th hour surprises. If you need one....there are sound reasons for it, and a logical mature person can understand these reasons.

Ensure that the prenup is written or each element is understood by the prospective spouse. Execute it in your legal state before marriage. Get a lawyer for your potential spouse - and a court interpreter to ensure that your potential spouse can understand EACH ELEMENT within the document - and of course notarize the signings etc. If possible, try to have the prenup executed well in advance of the marriage. For K1's this is usually not doable - but put in a clause that this has been discussed for some time, and that because of the K1 entry - and wanting to execute in the US and after entry to the US, there is NO PRessure to sign, and that all parties have been aware of the creation of the document. "I AM NOT A LAWYER AND THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE", ONLY OPINION.

Ok, too much and of course all IMHO, based on my experiences. Your mileage may vary!

Best of luck to all and may you all be happily married forever!!!!

Very informative and thought out post.

[DanielParul 50]

We live in Texas, a community property state but we did not feel the need for a prenup either. We have all joint accounts, I am named on everything. I even have an absolute Power Of Attorney coz he's deployed. There's never been a trust issue with us. We are in this for life and with a 100% commitment. Sometimes I am amazed at him being so trusting that he just handed me everything (ofcourse, I would hv done the same) and we can never break that trust or hurt each other.

Saying that, nothing wrong with a pre-nup coz its a personal choice and the couple needs to decide.

[Beautiful_years 0]

Beautiful_years @ Nov 9 2008, 03:18 AM

NOTHING can kill romance faster than the word prenup. But with about one in three of all first marriages ending in divorce, and 50 percent of second or third ones hitting the skids, a prenup is smart financial planning.

Marriage is not just an emotional and physical union -- it's also a financial union. A prenup and the discussions that go with it can help ensure the financial well-being of the marriage also One option for softening the blow of a prenup is to add a "sunset clause," which specifies a time at which the contract would expire -- for example, after 5 or less years of marriage. Depending on what you both agree.

PRE-NUP - Interesting Topic.

Thoughtful comments, on both ends of the spectrum reference this important topic. We just K1'd to the US (From China-where we both lived) and got married yesterday. Yes there was a prenup!

1. As many have said, when you are young and just finishing school, no children, grandchildren, businesses, homes, assets - then the NEED for a prenup is low. The reverse of this increases the need in direct proportion to the extent of these items.

2. Some folks own businesses that have been in the family, or have trusted-loyal executives that have been promised stock on sale, profit sharing, and other property settlements. One would hardly want to abandon earlier comitments and promises and leave these people liable for a possible property battle in courts as a result of a subsequent divorce.

3. There are often children, who have resided in a "family home" for years - that have expressed a desire to continue living there....and a whole host of other property items that one does not want to have a LIABILITY from a new spouse that could end in a court battle. Loyalty to children, employees and honoring ones previous comittments and responsibilities is important.

4. There are often inheritance issues, educational funding trusts, and a whole host of entities and documents that one must "remove" the liability from anyone potentially tampering with these established items.

5. The family business (farm) scenario - where the children, aunts, uncles whomever - are a part of a privately held company -- derive there income from this business --one cannot let a subsequent divorce - cause sale or put them out of business and end their lives.

6. When one has a larger than average income from Investments, Property, and business - limitation on future earnings should, and often is outlined, limited, and dealt with before the divorce/marriage and problems. Many view that short term marriages should not result in 1/2 of these monies being awarded to one spouse, and then there is the idea espoused here that perhaps there could even be potential marriage fraud, change of heart when moving to a new country, or just plain incompatibility! Things change.

Having said all that, a prenup is not always, limiting, restricting or punitive. Many put the following in the prenup which all help to define and ensure that the potential spouse is secure:

1. An amount of money to be awarded to the spouse with less assets/income based on years of marriage or some other formula in the event of divorce.

2. All newly acquired property placed in joint ownership - specifically sharing "new life assets".

3. Joint investments, accounts, etc to be joint property - within "new life assets".

4. Outlining of Survivor Benefits, disposition of 401k, IRAs, and other things specific to maintaining security of the spouse with lessor assets/income.

5. Trust, wills, and other intentions relative to trusteeship, pour over wills, and other LLC, assets germane to the new spouse.

6. Dealing with the fact of Non-US Citizen spouse not being a USC and the very DIRE situation in terms of Estate Planning - and exclusion provisions for a USC spouse...a BIG PROBLEM IN THE US.

7. As mentioned before -- issues about debts, old/prior, and newly acquired after marriage.

All the above sounds like issues that mature, responsible, married citizens must plan for in their married life. Without consideratin of security, survivor benefits, taxation, life insurance, ownership issues, investmetns, business, income and income tax --- is to have a less than responsible approach to a complex life we all must deal with. The more money and assets you have the more complex the issue.

Let those without assets, income or prior comittments marry without the need of a prenup or consideration for the future. They can work together and build their lives and property and equally work, share, and benefit from thier own efforts.

For those that are, perhaps older, and have prior responsibilites and agreements/contracts, as well as perhaps significant assets, be responsible and ensure due diligence in terms of protecting these matters.

For those that have a need for prenup: Tell your potential spouse EARLY in the relationship that you need to have this agreement. Nothing spoils a relationship worse than 11th hour surprises. If you need one....there are sound reasons for it, and a logical mature person can understand these reasons.

Ensure that the prenup is written or each element is understood by the prospective spouse. Execute it in your legal state before marriage. Get a lawyer for your potential spouse - and a court interpreter to ensure that your potential spouse can understand EACH ELEMENT within the document - and of course notarize the signings etc. If possible, try to have the prenup executed well in advance of the marriage. For K1's this is usually not doable - but put in a clause that this has been discussed for some time, and that because of the K1 entry - and wanting to execute in the US and after entry to the US, there is NO PRessure to sign, and that all parties have been aware of the creation of the document. "I AM NOT A LAWYER AND THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE", ONLY OPINION.

Ok, too much and of course all IMHO, based on my experiences. Your mileage may vary!

Best of luck to all and may you all be happily married forever!!!!

This was very informative thanks, i hope others considering a prenup would read and get something out of this, i did.

Thanks for taking out time to write.

[Mike&Jin 0]

This was very informative thanks, i hope others considering a prenup would read and get something out of this, i did.

Thanks for taking out time to write.

Your welcome - no problem taking the time......just trying to help all see some of the issues that might prompt a prenup - and of course if these are not applicable - no prenup is needed!

[Beautiful_years 0]

Prenup is fast becoming popular i see, as much as a lot of people are willing to sign one, to others its a complete no no! The moment you say the word, PRENUP the love dies... with speed and that truly is funny. To some others not signing a prenup is also a red flag as they would argue that if its all about love then why be stressed over signing a prenup.

Some would recommend it for anyone who sponsors a spouse and has the feeling that they need more time but cant really take that much time because of the 90days marriage date imposed on people by uscis. As meeting online and or communicating on the internetand talking on phone is not enough to really show us who we are, we might meet in person and after a few months realize how totally incompactible we are.

[jlogajan 0]

A dilemma -- if you truly love someone it is said you wouldn't ask them to sign a prenup. But if they truly loved you, they wouldn't hesitate to sign.

[WestmorelandLove 0]

I just have a problem with people choosing spouses and then when things go wrong go crying to the USCIS demanding new regulations to keep them safe and not taking responsibility for their own choices and lack of care in selecting them.

The energy spend to "get even" with a foreign spouse by spending endless months complaining to the USCIS that they did not ' protect them ' from the fraudulent SO, should have been invested into getting to know and investigating the SO PRIOR to jumping into a visa petition.

Thats more like it, theres a lot of crying and blaming and then tightening conditions and making other beneficiaries look fraudulent, i think we should own up to bad choices for one, then admit to not observing the red signs on another hand. Or chulk it up as one of the sad experiences life throws.

I also agree some people can be really cunning too, be nice caring and loving, live lives for years like its a movie, and less than one year after getting here they are on the way out. Its just sad that once the conditions are lifted even a divorce wont cancel you affidavit of support so prenup or no prenup you ll still be on her list.[/b]

while discussing with friends on the issue most admits if they have their way they ll suggest a prenup for both parties well it has to meet their requirements though for certain years atleast three, so that either way we both have nothing to lose but ofcourse thats their opinion, plus it excludes everything they both worked for as a family from the spouse getting here, each can keep their inheritance or whatever they have stashed up somewhere.

It gets depressing sometimes when you read too many threads making almost every potential beneficiary a fraud in the making.

But one thing i have seen is that despite signing a prenup, the emotional trauma that goes with it hangs around a while, some let go easily while others don't.

If faced with the situation... il sign to prove my love but also for a duration we both agree on, as love means sharing, and when i say everything i mean everything, wealth and debts alike.

As far as doing a prenup - I didn't do one. Here in Texas its a community property state. My ex thought he could take my car and I would have to sell my home and split any profit made with him. As he found out all my processions were sole property and he wasn't entitled to anything, His true colors came out not even three months after saying I do. The AOS was pending - he had only gotten the work permit. I pulled the affividat of support I864 which stopped the processing of his AOS. He's still here - always said that if we didn't work out he would go back to Jamaica to his sons. Even told my family that he wasn't using me for a green card - but doing our divorce he told my attorney that I had his immigration paperwork - which was a lie. He wanted/needed my tax records and a letter of employment from my employer - and a completed affidavit - WTH. What part of divorce did he not understand?

The mentioning of "cunning" that he was. I had surgery a week after we married and my ex was so loving and helpful - he kept asking me how can you be off work this long without pay. I told him that I had sick days and I was covered. During this time he asked me about sending money to family in Jamaica - I told him that things were tight with me being out and being the only one working he got upset and told me "if it was your family you would sacrifice and give to them". I told him that was the difference between our families - my family didn't ask each other for money. The sacrifice is to do without and make do. My family knows when we are in need and they will just send it. My mom had sent us money several times - and my ex accused me of getting money from men - go figure. I even showed him the check from my mom and he still had that to say.

[sj5 4]

Some woman isn't up to genuine relationship. It's a fact that some USC is being used for purposes.

[chuckb 0]

Crazy world out there. I still say the less government or anyone else is involved in what I say or do, the better. Why would anyone subject themselves to the "process" unless they really know that what they want is waiting at the end? I would never want to go through the BS again. But then maybe I am one of the lucky ones that will never have to do it again.

There are good reasons for prenups. I just think it's a personal choice, and in some cases, a neccessity. Someone before made a very good case for that...

Edited November 11, 2008 by chuckb