Canadian Health Care We So Envy Lies In Ruins, Its Architect Admits

[SaadBell 0]

are you serious? the thousands of americans who work low wage manufacturing jobs don't get jack.. the burger flippers at mickey d's get jack, they have to go to the healthcare county office wait forever and get crappy service...

I would love to have some good health insurance, not sure where you live Gary, but whatever insurance you have, most of us don't. The long waits, and when you need specialize treatment, the doctor can order it, but it is up to the insurance companies if you will get it or not. Everyone I talked to has had the same bad experiences with fighting insurance companies, fighting to get treatments your doctor ordered, and sadly a lot of them die because their insurance denied them. That is my reality and a lot of people’s reality, take profit out of medicine, it should be there to protect people, not something that business make tons of money, and believe me it is all about the money. The dentist, I have never walked into a dentist office or a doctor’s office without them asking for proof of insurance.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

I tried to make a dentist appointment here a few weeks ago, first question I was asked was "do you have insurance" next was "we might not accept that, you'd have to pay first".. Back home the first question was "whats wrong and are you in pain".... it sickens me to death to think that people without (could have been me, was me before) would have been turned away in pain?

I'd love to know where that dentist was.. you sure you didn't go to Canada for that kind of treatment?... Maybe you looked/sounded like you could afford it maybe, maybe you found one in a million? I know one thing for sure every dentist I've seen in the US has asked for three things right away, fill in this document, we'll need to see ID and your health insurance card.. No insurance card, well we'll need to see some cash...

My experience with dentists here is the same as Aidens . . .and partially similar to Gary's. One of my front incisors fragmented 3 years ago (it had had a previous root canal done in Canada). I called around to find a dentist - none of them took our insurance. I finally found one who did - but I couldn't get an appointment for 4 days. They put a temporary cap on, then I went back for the permanent replacement a month after that. They were more interested in trying to get me to replace all of my teeth with crowns than just doing the work that needed doing for a nice big cost in the tens of thousands. When I had pain in one of my teeth their diagnosis right away was 'root canal' for several thousand dollars. Since I had already met my maximum of $1000 in insurance for the year (that happens extremely quickly - even faster if you have to use an out of service provider) i decided to explore other options. Siince I had some antibiotics at home, I took those instead. The pain went away and I have been 3 years without pain in that tooth - the same one that 'had' to have a root canal. (And yes, I DO know that you are not supposed to use antibiotics like that but under the circumstances and supported by my research it was the reasonable alternative - and it worked).

In Canada, dentists are not covered by universal health care so either you pay or an employer pays for dental care. If I had a toothache I was always able to get an appointment the same day - not 3 or 4 days later. Gary, you seem to think it is perfectly acceptable to wait 3 days in pain. That I don't understand - it wouldn't happen in Canada. When I had root canals done in Canada the total price was a third of the price I was quoted here in the US for a simple, single root - and these were on molars with 4 roots. My dentist also allowed payment plans, and understood that my finances were limited so would provide me with options - a higher and a lower cost option. I was fortunate in that my dental was covered by my employer at 80%. The dental company allowed me to wait until the insurance came in to pay them. I filed my own claims - straight forward send in the paperwork and receive back a cheque in 2 weeks.

Let's talk about expenses that are not covered. I use insulin - two different types. I also test my blood glucose multiple times a day as my test results determine the amount of linsullin I take - also several times a day. The co-pay I pay here for the test strips is just slightly less than the full price I paid for the test strips in Canada - they are not subsidized by the government nor are prescriptions covered by the Health act. The vial of insulin I paid $19 for in Canada cost $34 here - exact same product, exact same manufacturer. I don't understand how diabetics who don't have some sort of coverage are able to manage their condition here in the US. . . how in heavens name can they afford it? It costs at least 3 times more to purchase the necessary medication and accessories in the US as it does in Canada - and that is when neither country is providing any type of health subsidy or reimbursement. Add to that the necessary trips to doctors for prescriptions and ongoing testing all with their copays if you have insurance or full cost if you don't, well, people just can't afford to be sick here.

I do have friends here without insurance. One of them received a bad cut on his cheek from a tree branch. He 'sewed' it up himself. When he broke his leg by falling through a rotted wooden stair, he splinted it himself and let it heal. He couldn't afford medical treatment as his expenses were already very close to the edge and he just didn't have the money. Another friend has ulcerative collitis - she has to decide how long she can endure the pain before she goes to her doctor for medication because she can't afford the visits or the medication. She works 35 hours a week in a llibrary but they don't provide benefits for those who work less than 40 hours - and they won't increase her hours or the hours of their other employees to 40 just so they don't have to provide medical benefits.

I am glad that you have good insurance, Gary - and I am more than thankful that I do right now as well. I don't know what is going to happen to me when my husband retires in 3 years and I no longer have coverage. He will be able to get medicaid - I won't. Yes, it frightens me.

Edited June 27, 2008 by Kathryn41

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I've had several experiences both directly and things I've heard directly from friends and relatives that make me seriously question the way healthcare is managed by these insurance companies.

FIL almost killed because the insurance agent directly intervened in the management of his cardiac care.

SIL almost died of a kidney infection back when she was unemployed and without insurance. Still paying off the hospital admission nearly 5 years later...

My friend in CA had a mild stroke in 2006 and now cannot get affordable insurance because the cholesterol/blood pressure reducing drugs prescribed by his doctor make him "high risk". Before the stroke he had never been admitted to hospital in his life.

I had to fight an insurance company when they tried to "pre-existing condition" me for $20,000 for a diagnostic surgery. I received additional bills and letters demanding payment for months after the surgery.

Also before I had the surgery - people I mentioned it to at work were aghast that I was even considering it - even with insurance. The impression I got from everyone I spoke to was that "were I them" they would have taken their chances... What a terrible attitude to take to your own health...

[Saddle Bronc 124]

Eh, Castonquay designed the system specifically for Canada's known FUBAR province of Québec--enough said!

[almaty 19]

i take canada's system over usa..ask a retiree about prescription costs.,...

[one...two...tree 2,762]

i take canada's system over usa..ask a retiree about prescription costs.,...

Yep. My parents who are both retired, are paying over $600 in premiums. Even with that, there is a cap on how much in total prescriptions costs per year they'll pay. They were both fortunate to have decent retirement plans (which for most of us now do not exist).

Senator Clinton will help bring us national health care within the next couple of years...I am hoping and praying.

[trailmix 77]

i take canada's system over usa..ask a retiree about prescription costs.,...

Good point almaty. My Mother is retired and she has 3 or 4 prescriptions she takes. While drugs are not covered for everyone in Canada, for seniors in Alberta covered by blue cross (no cost to the senior) they are subsidized. Therefore each prescription only costs her $25 a quarter.

She also needed a blood test for something recently. As she was not feeling all that great, the Dr was contacted and someone is coming to her place today to take the blood test.

I don't think it has been mentioned that as well as health coverage for all in Canada there is also a vast network of other organizations that people can access at no or very limited cost - whether for home care or home cleaning for seniors.

[Sister Fracas 5]

I'd love to know where that dentist was.. you sure you didn't go to Canada for that kind of treatment?... Maybe you looked/sounded like you could afford it maybe, maybe you found one in a million? I know one thing for sure every dentist I've seen in the US has asked for three things right away, fill in this document, we'll need to see ID and your health insurance card.. No insurance card, well we'll need to see some cash...

I think if this country cut back on the billions spend killing other people across the globe and chopped government in a few dozen places then maybe it wouldn't be so bad? I mean, how many levels of government in this county?.. City, County, State, Federal.. so much waste!

Aidan, I have never known either dental or medical visits any other way either. At the doctor and dentist, I have to show my ID, insurance card, pay my co-pay and THEN I can see the doctor. That is the same with any test I've had too. They sure as hell want to know that they are going to get paid, before any kind of service is rendered.

That said, I don't think any sytem is perfect. My SIL, in the UK, had to be put on some kind of waiting list for 10 months when she has a problem they couldn't diagnose. She had pain and had to take a leave from work because she was ill, but she couldn't get the care she needed. So, I'm sure there are problems that anyone could share with the "other" system.

Edited June 27, 2008 by Sister Fracas

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I've never heard of any doctor's office that will accept a payment plan. Most of them have a sign that says, 'Payment in full is required at the time services are rendered."

Edited June 27, 2008 by Jabberwocky

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I've never heard of any doctor's office that will accept a payment plan. Most of them have a sign that says, 'Payment in full is required at the time services are rendered."

The sign says that but you have to ask. I know lots of doctors in this area that will "work with you" but you have to whine first and not pay at first.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I've never heard of any doctor's office that will accept a payment plan. Most of them have a sign that says, 'Payment in full is required at the time services are rendered."

The sign says that but you have to ask. I know lots of doctors in this area that will "work with you" but you have to whine first and not pay at first.

What a liberal concept.

[Sister Fracas 5]

I've never heard of any doctor's office that will accept a payment plan. Most of them have a sign that says, 'Payment in full is required at the time services are rendered."

The sign says that but you have to ask. I know lots of doctors in this area that will "work with you" but you have to whine first and not pay at first.

Wonder if that would work at Nordstrom's?

[Peikko 1,575]

I think where Gary, and people like him get stuck, is with the idea that business necessarily produces the most cost effective systems due to the concept of survival of the fittest in the business world. So, by his theory competition will still provide people with good coverage, not because the aim of the insurance companies is to provide access to good health care (because we know that is not their aim) but because the only way they can make good profits is by being good at providing access to good health care so that they can sell more health care on the back of their reputation.

The reality is however very different. Insurance companies can make healthy profits by all the means that have been described in previous posts by denying access to good health care, in essence the driving force of insurance companies, the way they have chosen to make a profit is to prevent as many sick people as they can from entering their insurance pool and deny as many claims as they can within their particular insurance pool. That is what they spend all their energy and resourcfulness in realizing. That is the easiest way to make a profit and because it is very hard to get any real information on how the insurance companies perform in terms of providing actual health care and none of the insurance companies stand out because they offer coverage to everyone at low rates (because as a business model that would suck!) there isn't actually any real competition anyway.

Currently, people can only get really decent health care if they get access to insurance via company insurance polies (large companies demanding decent care as a 'lure' to their employees) and McCain would like to phase that out? Yes, I can see the improvements in health care voting for McCain would bring.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I've never heard of any doctor's office that will accept a payment plan. Most of them have a sign that says, 'Payment in full is required at the time services are rendered."

The sign says that but you have to ask. I know lots of doctors in this area that will "work with you" but you have to whine first and not pay at first.

Wonder if that would work at Nordstrom's?

Probably not, the 80 year old white ladies who go to Nordstrom are too good for that.

Whining does help though, with doctors and with insurance companies too (I work for one, I see it all the time). But for the whining to work, you have to first miss a bill or they won't think you're serious.

[CBR 0]

I tried to make a dentist appointment here a few weeks ago, first question I was asked was "do you have insurance" next was "we might not accept that, you'd have to pay first".. Back home the first question was "whats wrong and are you in pain".... it sickens me to death to think that people without (could have been me, was me before) would have been turned away in pain?

I'd love to know where that dentist was.. you sure you didn't go to Canada for that kind of treatment?... Maybe you looked/sounded like you could afford it maybe, maybe you found one in a million? I know one thing for sure every dentist I've seen in the US has asked for three things right away, fill in this document, we'll need to see ID and your health insurance card.. No insurance card, well we'll need to see some cash...

My experience with dentists here is the same as Aidens . . .and partially similar to Gary's. One of my front incisors fragmented 3 years ago (it had had a previous root canal done in Canada). I called around to find a dentist - none of them took our insurance. I finally found one who did - but I couldn't get an appointment for 4 days. They put a temporary cap on, then I went back for the permanent replacement a month after that. They were more interested in trying to get me to replace all of my teeth with crowns than just doing the work that needed doing for a nice big cost in the tens of thousands. When I had pain in one of my teeth their diagnosis right away was 'root canal' for several thousand dollars. Since I had already met my maximum of $1000 in insurance for the year (that happens extremely quickly - even faster if you have to use an out of service provider) i decided to explore other options. Siince I had some antibiotics at home, I took those instead. The pain went away and I have been 3 years without pain in that tooth - the same one that 'had' to have a root canal. (And yes, I DO know that you are not supposed to use antibiotics like that but under the circumstances and supported by my research it was the reasonable alternative - and it worked).

In Canada, dentists are not covered by universal health care so either you pay or an employer pays for dental care. If I had a toothache I was always able to get an appointment the same day - not 3 or 4 days later. Gary, you seem to think it is perfectly acceptable to wait 3 days in pain. That I don't understand - it wouldn't happen in Canada. When I had root canals done in Canada the total price was a third of the price I was quoted here in the US for a simple, single root - and these were on molars with 4 roots. My dentist also allowed payment plans, and understood that my finances were limited so would provide me with options - a higher and a lower cost option. I was fortunate in that my dental was covered by my employer at 80%. The dental company allowed me to wait until the insurance came in to pay them. I filed my own claims - straight forward send in the paperwork and receive back a cheque in 2 weeks.

Let's talk about expenses that are not covered. I use insulin - two different types. I also test my blood glucose multiple times a day as my test results determine the amount of linsullin I take - also several times a day. The co-pay I pay here for the test strips is just slightly less than the full price I paid for the test strips in Canada - they are not subsidized by the government nor are prescriptions covered by the Health act. The vial of insulin I paid $19 for in Canada cost $34 here - exact same product, exact same manufacturer. I don't understand how diabetics who don't have some sort of coverage are able to manage their condition here in the US. . . how in heavens name can they afford it? It costs at least 3 times more to purchase the necessary medication and accessories in the US as it does in Canada - and that is when neither country is providing any type of health subsidy or reimbursement. Add to that the necessary trips to doctors for prescriptions and ongoing testing all with their copays if you have insurance or full cost if you don't, well, people just can't afford to be sick here.

I do have friends here without insurance. One of them received a bad cut on his cheek from a tree branch. He 'sewed' it up himself. When he broke his leg by falling through a rotted wooden stair, he splinted it himself and let it heal. He couldn't afford medical treatment as his expenses were already very close to the edge and he just didn't have the money. Another friend has ulcerative collitis - she has to decide how long she can endure the pain before she goes to her doctor for medication because she can't afford the visits or the medication. She works 35 hours a week in a llibrary but they don't provide benefits for those who work less than 40 hours - and they won't increase her hours or the hours of their other employees to 40 just so they don't have to provide medical benefits.

I am glad that you have good insurance, Gary - and I am more than thankful that I do right now as well. I don't know what is going to happen to me when my husband retires in 3 years and I no longer have coverage. He will be able to get medicaid - I won't. Yes, it frightens me.

i take canada's system over usa..ask a retiree about prescription costs.,...

Good point almaty. My Mother is retired and she has 3 or 4 prescriptions she takes. While drugs are not covered for everyone in Canada, for seniors in Alberta covered by blue cross (no cost to the senior) they are subsidized. Therefore each prescription only costs her $25 a quarter.

She also needed a blood test for something recently. As she was not feeling all that great, the Dr was contacted and someone is coming to her place today to take the blood test.

I don't think it has been mentioned that as well as health coverage for all in Canada there is also a vast network of other organizations that people can access at no or very limited cost - whether for home care or home cleaning for seniors.

Did you guys know that many drug companies will give patients free meds? You can look online or ask your doctor's office for an application to apply for free meds. Many major drug companies have lists of the meds they provide on these programs. And Target and Walmart (and other big chains i'm sure) have many common meds available for $4 a month or $10 or a 90 day supply? It might be worth checking out to save some money. I hate to see people struggle to pay for their meds. In the clinic where I work we frequently help needy patients out in this way or by giving them samples so they don't have to fork out all that money. Also, if your med isn't on your insurance's formulary your doctor can do a prior authorization which states to the insurance co. that the generic isn't effective for you or that there isn't an equivalent med on their formulary and these are often approved (in my experience) and the patient then can pay the lower copay. I know it's not perfect, but there are some things that can be done to help.

plz don't flame me, i'm trying to be helpful.