Universal Health Care

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Here's a question for you Marc, since you talk about people expecting a handout.

Suppose you owned your own hospital and a homeless man walks into your emergency room, collapses on the ground and is unconcious, bleeding profusely. Are you going to medically treat him even if you know you'll never get a dime out of him?

[Empress of Groovy 373]

Now that I think of it, I can't remember the last time I actually saw a doctor when I was sick. Often it's a nurse practitioner or PA these days if you want to be seen quickly. For similar fee, of course. I guess it's not unlike college tuition increasing every year but having more courses taught by grad students.

Hmm...

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Here's a question for you Marc, since you talk about people expecting a handout.

Suppose you owned your own hospital and a homeless man walks into your emergency room, collapses on the ground and is unconcious, bleeding profusely. Are you going to medically treat him even if you know you'll never get a dime out of him?

Steve lets "suppose there were no homeless ppl" We can suppose shite all nite long!

I was walking into a store one time and this old boy comin out just collapsed right in front of me,the cops came as I was holding his head up, he was all gurgilin and shite,foam comin from his mouth. I told the cop to take over and he told me I was doin fine. I thought, ####### is up with this? Im just here pickin up some dam bread. The ambulance came and they fixed up the old boy and he walked off just fine.

I guess the moral of the story is. You cant save everyone and if you even venture that thought, your in for some severe disappointments.

Sure its a great thought to want to save the world from all its evil. Aint gonna happen. Steve, as much as you dream of it and want it! You can throw all the money on this planet at that dream and it will never come true. Do you realize that the t.v. that you watch everyday, brings shite to your living room that you would never have known about a mere 30 years ago. Steve thats prolly about as long as your exsitence.

The minute someone stubs their toe in Iraq the vultures are all over it. Get on with your life, you cant save everyone. You got a fine young man there in your child, concentrate on him. Just dont vote on a fantacy. Peace!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The UK system isn't perfect. I don't think anyone has ever said that it is.

Of course a little known fact is that we, like the US have private insurance for anyone who wants it.

Suggesting that Universal Healthcare is about "Free" healthcare, is simply misrepresenting the arguments.

Ill rephrase it for you! its unacceptable.

Rephrase it how you want. Anyone can cherry pick articles out of the newspaper - it doesn't really prove anything about relative standards of care. Or costs of living.

Perhaps I should dig up a few articles about people being denied treatment, reduced to destitution or subsequently dying because of pre-existing condition clauses or because their treatment isn't covered by the insurance.

Just like you? You need to realize that standing around with your hand out is a waste of time. You stand-up for a system you moved away from ( if its so great nothins stoppin ya from returning, take advantage of that freedom that so many gave their lives for) and then have the odacity to condemn ours.

You went on a german fcukin vacation awhile back, What did that run ya? Get the ** outta my pocket son.

What does my moving to the US have to do with the healthcare system? I'll tell you: ####### all.

No audacity there I'm afraid

Here's a question for you Marc, since you talk about people expecting a handout.

Suppose you owned your own hospital and a homeless man walks into your emergency room, collapses on the ground and is unconcious, bleeding profusely. Are you going to medically treat him even if you know you'll never get a dime out of him?

Steve lets "suppose there were no homeless ppl" We can suppose shite all nite long!

I was walking into a store one time and this old boy comin out just collapsed right in front of me,the cops came as I was holding his head up, he was all gurgilin and shite,foam comin from his mouth. I told the cop to take over and he told me I was doin fine. I thought, ####### is up with this? Im just here pickin up some dam bread. The ambulance came and they fixed up the old boy and he walked off just fine.

I guess the moral of the story is. You cant save everyone and if you even venture that thought, your in for some severe disappointments.

Sure its a great thought to want to save the world from all its evil. Aint gonna happen. Steve, as much as you dream of it and want it! You can throw all the money on this planet at that dream and it will never come true. Do you realize that the t.v. that you watch everyday, brings shite to your living room that you would never have known about a mere 30 years ago. Steve thats prolly about as long as your exsitence.

The minute someone stubs their toe in Iraq the vultures are all over it. Get on with your life, you cant save everyone. You got a fine young man there in your child, concentrate on him. Just dont vote on a fantacy. Peace!

Actually - the moral of your story appears to be "don't even try".

Nice!

[Niels Bohr 72]

Healthcare? How many people actually use the hospitals

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Healthcare? How many people actually use the hospitals

We should close them and turn them into strip malls and fast food restaurants

[Ban Hammer 14,297]

where did you get the idea that the armed forces are efficient? ever heard of $600 hammers?

Ever heard of $10,000 medical procedures or a $100.00 prescription that cost a fraction outside the US in places with comparable cost of living? It's sort of the same thing. Just to counter the point that only the government is wasteful.

of course it's cheaper outside the usa. let's outsource all our medical procedures to south america!

[HAL 9000 96]

where did you get the idea that the armed forces are efficient? ever heard of $600 hammers?

Ever heard of $10,000 medical procedures or a $100.00 prescription that cost a fraction outside the US in places with comparable cost of living? It's sort of the same thing. Just to counter the point that only the government is wasteful.

of course it's cheaper outside the usa. let's outsource all our medical procedures to south america!

Given that we'd have a choice to do so under the care of US-trained MDs, I see no reason to under the current rip-off system we have and fail to enjoy.

[Peikko 1,575]

We don't want it, simple as that. I don't see any pride in another government take over of our lives. I would see it as a shame and a degrading of our country. Your from another country, we have a different mind-set here. We don't take pride in government, we take pride in individual achievement.

This doesn't make any sense to me, you take pride in your country and your flag but not your goverment? It's not like there's a quota on pride, or that by taking pride in what the goverment does you can't also take pride in individual achievements. That whole line of thought is completely barmy.

Good health is not just another commodity like oil and good health isn't something that effects everyone equally - there is only so much personal responsibility can account for when striving to maintain good health - after that it's a matter of what genes you have been dealt and yet private health care takes no account of these inequalities because to attain maximum profit for the shareholders private insurers must take as much money as it can from healthy people while at the same time trying to minimise coverage for those who are unhealthy. I don't see any way of forcing private health insurers to provide fair health care and even if it were possible, those who favour unregulated industry are not going to allow that to happen anyway.

The resistance to universal health care is such an odd thing, the US is the only wealthy, industrialized nation that does not have a universal health care system - but it's not as if the goverment doesn't have health care responsibility. The goverment has to take on some of the highest risk groups of people including the elderly, disabled, military veterans, childern and poor. That has to be the most inefficient way to accomodate health care so it's not surprising that the US has the biggest spend of GDP on health care while at the same time not giving everyone adequate care.

Edited April 16, 2008 by Purple_Hibiscus

[Peikko 1,575]

Yet, you admit that despite the problems, the armed forces can't be privatised?

Of course the armed forces can be privatized - there are quite a few private military contractors.

Remember Blackwater USA?

How would everyone rate military contractors in terms of financial efficiency and military efficiency? Going well is it?

[almaty 19]

Here's a question for you Marc, since you talk about people expecting a handout.

Suppose you owned your own hospital and a homeless man walks into your emergency room, collapses on the ground and is unconcious, bleeding profusely. Are you going to medically treat him even if you know you'll never get a dime out of him?

better ....or you be fined by the feds....cobra and anti-dumping law

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Here's a question for you Marc, since you talk about people expecting a handout.

Suppose you owned your own hospital and a homeless man walks into your emergency room, collapses on the ground and is unconcious, bleeding profusely. Are you going to medically treat him even if you know you'll never get a dime out of him?

Steve lets "suppose there were no homeless ppl" We can suppose shite all nite long!

I was walking into a store one time and this old boy comin out just collapsed right in front of me,the cops came as I was holding his head up, he was all gurgilin and shite,foam comin from his mouth. I told the cop to take over and he told me I was doin fine. I thought, ####### is up with this? Im just here pickin up some dam bread. The ambulance came and they fixed up the old boy and he walked off just fine.

I guess the moral of the story is. You cant save everyone and if you even venture that thought, your in for some severe disappointments.

Sure its a great thought to want to save the world from all its evil. Aint gonna happen. Steve, as much as you dream of it and want it! You can throw all the money on this planet at that dream and it will never come true. Do you realize that the t.v. that you watch everyday, brings shite to your living room that you would never have known about a mere 30 years ago. Steve thats prolly about as long as your exsitence.

The minute someone stubs their toe in Iraq the vultures are all over it. Get on with your life, you cant save everyone. You got a fine young man there in your child, concentrate on him. Just dont vote on a fantacy. Peace!

So what's your answer for all the emergency rooms in this country? That if someone who is in need of medical attention but doesn't have a means to pay will be turned away? You're the one daydreaming if you think that will happen, because it won't. If you were the owner of a hospital, you would have no choice but to administer medical aid to anyone who walks through your emergency room doors regardless of whether they could ever pay for it or not. There's no getting around that reality.

Now multiply such occurances for every hospital in this country and try to imagine the costs being absorbed by those hospitals - who ends up paying? The insured do. So the fact is under our current system, those who have insurance are paying for those who don't through higher premiums. That's why the argument for preventive medical care for all is sensible because preventive care for those who cannot pay is a lot cheaper than what it costs everytime their medical condition turns into an emergency.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Also this "personal responsibility" rhetoric gets on my wick too. Yes you should healthy, yes you should exercise, yes you should purchase health insurance.

Yet purchasing health insurance isn't as easy as it sounds - not least if you have a pre-existing/chronic condition. You can be aged out of the system, you can priced out of the system because you have a cardio-vascular condition, cancer and the like.

McCain's healthcare plan is typical of that mindset - paint around the edges, provide the illusion of choice (as opposed to affordability) and do nothing to actually address the real reasons why healthcare costs so much.

I certainly don't think we're going to be in a position to totally abandon the current model - but I do think we need to get away from this spurious idea that the free market competition drives down healthcare costs and ensures affordable, quality patient care.

Its just incredibly dishonest.

Yet, you admit that despite the problems, the armed forces can't be privatised?

Of course the armed forces can be privatized - there are quite a few private military contractors.

Remember Blackwater USA?

How would everyone rate military contractors in terms of financial efficiency and military efficiency? Going well is it?

Doubtless evidenced by the numerous diplomatic incidents and the curious legal authority pertaining to civilian contractors.

If you can't do the torture yourself - pay someone else to do it.

[SaadBell 0]

We don't want it, simple as that. I don't see any pride in another government take over of our lives. I would see it as a shame and a degrading of our country. Your from another country, we have a different mind-set here. We don't take pride in government, we take pride in individual achievement.

What is this, you elected these people, why would you vote for someone you don’t trust. That is crazy, so you don’t trust the government for health care, but put your life in the hands of insurance companies that are in for profit. I really hope you never have to watch someone die slowly because they are denied treatment. Individual achievement, shame on you, what is that about, don’t care about your neighbor, just step over their body and keep going, too bad for them. If you are hungry, shut up and die already, same with bad health, wow the compassion. I just can’t stand by and watch these rich #### making billions, while some poor normal person, middle class, is denied treatment for profit. That is really scary, and if you think it can’t happen to you than you are living in a dream world. That is why I hope we get some new blood in the white house, this used to be a great country, but I feel we are losing ground. All this talk about long lines, not being able to see a doctor for weeks, guess what, better than never seeing a doctor because you can’t afford it. We have a higher infant mortality rate than CUBA, CUBA, ####### is that. They are very poor, but yet their health care is better than ours. We should be ashamed of our health care, I know I am.

[Heracles 417]

It is obvious that a Universal Health care system can work - there are plenty of examples world wide that prove it that they can and they do and in the best cases, extremely efficiently - the problem appears to be that people who appose it feel that the American government is incapable of creating and running an efficient health care system. If that is true, then the goverment requires reform.

Just out of interest, how come the goverment are able to run an efficient armed forces? Or is it the opinion that the goverment can't do squat that the armed forces should also be privatised?

Yes PH, the government needs reform.

As far as the military goes, it's in the best interest of the government to have a good military. That is why it is better at it. But massive waste still occures in this area. You remember $500 toilet seats and $200 hammers? Military contracts handed out as political favors? It's all over the government. However the military is one of the things that is spelled out in the constitution that the federal government is responsable for. That can never be privitized. It does however, needs to be reformend.

Even then. I was speaking with a guy the other day who said they now have to call one of these private government contractors (northrop grunman etc) for parts, for military equipment. And how the rep of the other company said well we don't have that valve anymore so it is going to cost $25,000 to get it. Now coincidentally he has a friend who works for that same company who told him that the $30 valve was sitting on a shelf. Guess who foots the bill for this. The American tax payer..