Hamas shut off the power to Palestine

[mawilson 2,133]

Have you heard, for example, of the town that was called Ramle? Maybe you could talk to some of the people who's families lived there for generations upon generations who are now expelled and forbidden to even move back there and then come back and tell me how they were not driven from their homes by gunpoint.

If the Arabs had accepted the 1947 UN resolution, not a single Palestinian would have become

a refugee. The refugee problem was caused by a war that was started by the Palestinians

as well as the five Arab states whose armies invaded Israel the day it declared independence.

[sandinista! 1,816]

yr attempting to discuss something with a group of people who think blowing up a hotel with british nurses and secretaries inside isn't terrorism. who think murdering lord moyne and folke bernadotte, sending mail bombs to british politicians, blowing up the british embassy in rome, and murdering hundreds of arab civilians isn't terrorism. that when israel pulls rubbish like the lavon affair (and later honors the participants with certificates of appreciation) they're just "a sovereign nation defending themselves". the moral depravity required to swallow this ####### is incredible. there's no discussing anything with moral degenerates of this magnitude-this thread is deader than dead.

[sandinista! 1,816]

These pro-Israeli people will never understand, because they believe "might is right" principle.

History is against you. The muslims didn't exactly purchase that land from the jews to begin with. It was kind of taken forcefully.

Do you only study the anti-Israeli portions of history?

it was the bloody romans (pagan and later christian) who kicked them out in the first place. the romans wouldn't even let jews into jerusalem for holidays after the last revolt. it wasn't until the muslims came that jews were even allowed back in to their holiest city. try again.

[AnewKINDofFEELIN 0]

These pro-Israeli people will never understand, because they believe "might is right" principle.

History is against you. The muslims didn't exactly purchase that land from the jews to begin with. It was kind of taken forcefully.

Do you only study the anti-Israeli portions of history?

it was the bloody romans (pagan and later christian) who kicked them out in the first place. the romans wouldn't even let jews into jerusalem for holidays after the last revolt. it wasn't until the muslims came that jews were even allowed back in to their holiest city. try again.

What are the holiest mosques built on top of?

[mawilson 2,133]

yr attempting to discuss something with a group of people who think blowing up a hotel with british nurses and secretaries inside isn't terrorism. who think murdering lord moyne and folke bernadotte, sending mail bombs to british politicians, blowing up the british embassy in rome, and murdering hundreds of arab civilians isn't terrorism. that when israel pulls rubbish like the lavon affair (and later honors the participants with certificates of appreciation) they're just "a sovereign nation defending themselves". the moral depravity required to swallow this ####### is incredible. there's no discussing anything with moral degenerates of this magnitude-this thread is deader than dead.

You must be pretty desperate if the best example of Jewish "terrorism" you can come up with

is from 1946. Keep citing it over and over again.

People died because the British had ignored the warning calls. Because they "did not take

orders from the Jews." At least there was a warning call, which is more than I can say for

your Hamas friends.

[sandinista! 1,816]

These pro-Israeli people will never understand, because they believe "might is right" principle.

History is against you. The muslims didn't exactly purchase that land from the jews to begin with. It was kind of taken forcefully.

Do you only study the anti-Israeli portions of history?

it was the bloody romans (pagan and later christian) who kicked them out in the first place. the romans wouldn't even let jews into jerusalem for holidays after the last revolt. it wasn't until the muslims came that jews were even allowed back in to their holiest city. try again.

What are the holiest mosques built on top of?

who destroyed the temple? babylonians, and later romans. keep trying.

[sandinista! 1,816]

yr attempting to discuss something with a group of people who think blowing up a hotel with british nurses and secretaries inside isn't terrorism. who think murdering lord moyne and folke bernadotte, sending mail bombs to british politicians, blowing up the british embassy in rome, and murdering hundreds of arab civilians isn't terrorism. that when israel pulls rubbish like the lavon affair (and later honors the participants with certificates of appreciation) they're just "a sovereign nation defending themselves". the moral depravity required to swallow this ####### is incredible. there's no discussing anything with moral degenerates of this magnitude-this thread is deader than dead.

You must be pretty desperate if the best example of Jewish "terrorism" you can come up with

is from 1946. Keep citing it over and over again.

People died because the British had ignored the warning calls. Because they "did not take

orders from the Jews." At least there was a warning call, which is more than I can say for

your Hamas friends.

it does not matter when it happened. you still refuse to condemn it. the british officer shot so that the bombers could move the explosives into the hotel never got a "warning call". "warning calls" do not make it any less of a terrorist act. the IRA tried to pull that defense in the 1980s too. it didn't work. because it's rubbish. and the lavon affair happened in the 1950s.

[AnewKINDofFEELIN 0]

These pro-Israeli people will never understand, because they believe "might is right" principle.

History is against you. The muslims didn't exactly purchase that land from the jews to begin with. It was kind of taken forcefully.

Do you only study the anti-Israeli portions of history?

it was the bloody romans (pagan and later christian) who kicked them out in the first place. the romans wouldn't even let jews into jerusalem for holidays after the last revolt. it wasn't until the muslims came that jews were even allowed back in to their holiest city. try again.

What are the holiest mosques built on top of?

who destroyed the temple? babylonians, and later romans. keep trying.

Yes, but it was still a holy site, and a noted holy site. Was it not? Was that unknown when the Dome was built? I think not.

Either way, the Palestinians are NOT going to be given Israel. It's about damn time to forge peace. If you don't believe that the palestinians are the one holding up the peace process, I don't know what to tell you.

Awww, our land was taken 60 years ago. Most of the terrorists weren't even ALIVE then. Don't tell me they were kicked out of their homes.

It's a sad story, but the story is already written. The only thing to do now is help the palestinian people for the future, which the war does not do.

[MrsAmera 41]

And what was built on top of the mosque in Granada? A church...hmmm.....This really has little to do with religion and much more to do with politics. The Abrahamic faiths lived peacefully in Medina, in Andalusia, in North Africa, in Egypt and the Ottoman Empire (sans the Armenian issue later), and so many other examples.

Mawilson your article came from Ben Netanyahu's website, jee that wouldn't be slanted at all.

Here is some alternate info:

n the years immediately following WWII, the British position in Palestine was made increasingly difficult. The ban on Jewish immigration by the British, despite rising persecution in Europe, led to the Biltmore declaration of 1942, in which Zionist Leader David Ben Gurion made explicit the Zionist goal of an independent state in Palestine, in order to ensure the right of free immigration. The military arm of the Zionist movement was the Hagannah, an underground army formed to defend against Arab riots. In 1938, the dissidents broke away and began forming their own underground groups, the Irgun and later the Lehi. The Irgun directed terror against Arabs, while the Lehi at first confined itself to fighting British imperialism by terror.

During the war, the Palmach, a special Hagganah unit was formed to prepare for a possible invasion from Syria, controlled by the Vichy French. During most of the war the Haganah and Palmach cooperated with the British. For a time in fact, especially during the "season’ in 1944, the Hagganah and Palmach were actively engaged in rounding up Irgun and Lehi members. However, after the war all the Jewish military groups became active in fighting the British. The Hagganah organized numerous attempts at illegal Jewish immigration, to bring the 250,000 refugees living in European DP camps to Palestine in whatever boats they could find. The violence between Arabs and Jews also escalated. The British, who were in any event in the process of parting from an empire they could no longer afford, notified the United Nations that they would be departing Palestine no later than August 1948.

After considerable debate, the United Nations General Assembly decided on partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states, with Jerusalem to be an internationalized city. The plan enjoyed the warm support of the Soviet Union and its Eastern European satellite governments. Josef Stalin hoped that the new Jewish state would be a bulwark against British imperialism. Owing to the support of President Truman, and despite State Department advice and Department of Defense pressure, the United States likewise supported the partition plan, and ensured its passage.

Meeting in Lake Success N.Y. November 29, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly approved the partition plan, with 33 votes in favor, 13 against, 10 abstentions and one absent (see list at end of document).

The Palestinians and Arabs felt that it was a total injustice to ignore the rights of the majority of the population of Palestine. The Arab League and Palestinian institutions rejected the partition plan, and formed volunteer armies that infiltrated into Palestine beginning in December of 1947. more here: http://www.mideastweb.org/181.htm

Refugees:

In addition to those who fled Israeli territory, about 100,000 Arabs in Israel were displaced from their own villages. Many left willingly and were assured that the eviction was a temporary security measure. In particular, the residents of Ikrit and Birim have been trying to return to their villages along the Lebanese border since 1948, but have not been allowed to do so despite repeated rulings of the Israeli supreme court.

more here: http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees1.htm

Israel full heartedly believes in the UN Mandate for the partition giving them territory but choose to ignore the later mandate allowing refugees the right to return Resolution 198.

[AnewKINDofFEELIN 0]

The point I was making was the the Jews and Arabs have wronged each other on that same land for hundreds of years. You can always cherrypick what you wish to believe. This is seen most frequently with people with some form of connection to the crisis.

Honestly, I think the Israelis and Palestinians are both to blame, but the Israelis hold the key. That's the bottom line. It is Israel whether the Palestinians want to believe it or not. The only resolution that would be "fair" would be to nuke the whole damn place.

Mawilson your article came from Ben Netanyahu's website, jee that wouldn't be slanted at all.

Morocco is part of the arab league. Jee, that wouldn't make you slanted at all.

[mawilson 2,133]

Mawilson your article came from Ben Netanyahu's website, jee that wouldn't be slanted at all.

The article was written by Efraim Karsh who's a Professor at King's College London.

It's been posted on hundreds of websites - the Netanyahu one is one of many.

[mawilson 2,133]

Here is some alternate info:

I don't see how it's "alternate". It doesn't contradict the info I posted because no "refugees" were "expelled" prior to the war of 1947-48.

Refugees:

In addition to those who fled Israeli territory, about 100,000 Arabs in Israel were displaced from their own villages. Many left willingly and were assured that the eviction was a temporary security measure. In particular, the residents of Ikrit and Birim have been trying to return to their villages along the Lebanese border since 1948, but have not been allowed to do so despite repeated rulings of the Israeli supreme court.

more here: http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees1.htm

So how does the displacement of 100,000 Arabs translate to the right of return for 5 million Palestinian refugees?

[MrsAmera 41]

My husband is Moroccan, loooong before I met him I studied this conflict, both sides. I have a certificate in Holocaust studies - and an MA in Homeland Security Management, because I believe in the right of Palestine to exist has little to do with my husbands heritage. Interesting note - Morocco also is very tolerant to Jews and Christians who live and have lived in Morocco for hundreds of years.

The point I was making was the the Jews and Arabs have wronged each other on that same land for hundreds of years. You can always cherrypick what you wish to believe. This is seen most frequently with people with some form of connection to the crisis.

Honestly, I think the Israelis and Palestinians are both to blame, but the Israelis hold the key. That's the bottom line. It is Israel whether the Palestinians want to believe it or not. The only resolution that would be "fair" would be to nuke the whole damn place.

Mawilson your article came from Ben Netanyahu's website, jee that wouldn't be slanted at all.

Morocco is part of the arab league. Jee, that wouldn't make you slanted at all.

It's called reproduction - 60 years worth of children and families.

Here is some alternate info:

I don't see how it's "alternate". It doesn't contradict the info I posted because no "refugees" were "expelled" prior to the war of 1947-48.

Refugees:

In addition to those who fled Israeli territory, about 100,000 Arabs in Israel were displaced from their own villages. Many left willingly and were assured that the eviction was a temporary security measure. In particular, the residents of Ikrit and Birim have been trying to return to their villages along the Lebanese border since 1948, but have not been allowed to do so despite repeated rulings of the Israeli supreme court.

more here: http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees1.htm

So how does the displacement of 100,000 Arabs translate to the right of return for 5 million Palestinian refugees?

Edited January 28, 2008 by MrsAmera

[MrsAmera 41]

I never argued displacement before 1947 - I did think it was interesting to note that the British were the ones who didn't want anymore Jewish immigrants entering Palestine, and that is what spurred the Zionist independence movement....

[♥JP♥ 5]

Let them "escape" to Egypt. A people that elect a terrorist group like Hamas don't deserve their own country.

Oooooo that was ironic.

Word to the wise: better do a little more serious thinking (or better yet -- actually *study* history) before you type such hasty remarks.

Because by your own reasoning -- Israelis don't deserve their own country:

Israel has a long history of electing terrorists as their Prime Minister -- for instance, Menachem Begin, and Yitzhak Shamir, and Ariel Sharon....

To you they are terrorists. That is expected considering your POV. To the civilized world they are not. You cannot call Hamas anything but a bunch of terrorists and no one is going to take your calling the hero's of Israel terrorists seriously.

Israeli terrorists are hero's to you???

He isn't a terrorist. Maybe to the Hamas terrorists he was but to everyone else he was a hero.

I'm not Hamas or Palistinian and he was a terrorist to me. I think you should stop speaking for the world. Everyone is entitled to their P.O.V. and to many he was nothing but a terrorist NO differnt than any other terrorist in the world.

Yes, it is not right to fire rockets at Israeli civilians. It is also not right to continue occupation. President Bush even said two weeks ago while he was in the Middle East that Israel must end occupation of Arab lands. Former President Jimmy Carter said the same thing as well.

Newsflash - Israel is no longer occupying Gaza!

You must have missed the big news of the year 2005:

Israel completes Gaza withdrawal

You should really pay more attention to the subject you claim to know so much about.

The rockets that rain down on Sderot and the Western Negev are Hamas' way of saying "thanks"

for the end of Israel's "occupation" of Gaza.

No matter how much we give them they always thank us with rockets. Sad.

Thank us? Do you live in Israel? You know what is sad, that everyone here seems to form their opinions based on what the media says. However when articles are published by people actually living in the area on both sides, those opinions are dismissed. I think many view points here would change if you had to actually live in Israel or Gaza. I don't think many Israeli's in ISRAEL share the viewpoint of those posting on VJ. That's what is sad.