U.S. illegal immigrants 'self deport' as woes mount

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

You can't hide from the problems we allow to continue happening. Better invest in fixing the problem in the first place and avoiding allowing our public officials and private citizens to play Monopoly with other countries' citizens.

Do you mean ... the illegal ones ... the ones that invaded a sovereign country?

Just like we do all the time. In more than just the classical sense.

Care to elaborate? Not sure what you're trying to get at.

[HAL 9000 96]

More than happy to- something some folks like to pass off as having a guilt trip in order to avoid suggesting honest solutions to fix the issue actually finds both economic and military foundations in the way our country and our companies have literally invaded other countries under various guises (call it what you will... imperialistic capitalism, getting ahead, protecting interests, promoting democracy, etc), having direct consequence on the economic and physical well-being of citizens of other nations.

Maybe that can point a finger at why America's government is so despised historically around the globe... YET... the relative financial security offered within our borders attracts those that do not enjoy our level of opulence- no matter where they come from. People are people and tend to react on the side of survival rather than on satisfying legislation that prevents certain international economic strata from doing better off than they were before.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

And the desired result is achieved without showing your anti-ILLEGAL immigrant colors in some segments of the population.

While the idea that we not abuse our opulence elsewhere continues to stay roughly the same, in spite of it being pretty clear that we have a bigger stake in being able to stave off this illegality in the first place.

Posted for correction.

[HAL 9000 96]

Correction for?

I think the post speaks clearly enough for itself but just in case we're practicing selective reading here's the part of that line that kinda disqualifies your implied feeling of having gotten pointed at...

"some segments of the population."

Have a Merry Christmas :rolleyes:

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I didn't feel pointed at. I'm hardly anti-immigrant; I doubt anyone here is anti-immigrant. Just keeping the subject clear because muddying the water between legal and illegal is a common liberal tactic.

Edited December 25, 2007 by Green-eyed girl

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

More than happy to- something some folks like to pass off as having a guilt trip in order to avoid suggesting honest solutions to fix the issue actually finds both economic and military foundations in the way our country and our companies have literally invaded other countries under various guises (call it what you will... imperialistic capitalism, getting ahead, protecting interests, promoting democracy, etc), having direct consequence on the economic and physical well-being of citizens of other nations.

Maybe that can point a finger at why America's government is so despised historically around the globe...

I don't know. Having grown up in Germany where America has been heavily involved post WWII - politically, militarily and economically - I'd have to tell you that Germany was better off for that involvement (one just needed to look to the part of Germany where the US wasn't involved to see it - and that is where I actually lived) and the US was most certainly not despised in that part of the world. I still remember when the US troops left West Berlin - the citizenry of that city has been nothing but thankful for what the US forces have done there from WWII until 1994.

Has the US made mistakes in the past and does the US continue to make mistakes? Sure. No doubt about it. Has the US done good around the world, helped nations in distress get back on their feet? Absolutely. Let's not paint a darker picture of this nation then can be justified. We are, after all, not the root of all the problems in the world. Not even close.

All that has, btw, not much to do with the issue at hand. So,

[HAL 9000 96]

More than happy to- something some folks like to pass off as having a guilt trip in order to avoid suggesting honest solutions to fix the issue actually finds both economic and military foundations in the way our country and our companies have literally invaded other countries under various guises (call it what you will... imperialistic capitalism, getting ahead, protecting interests, promoting democracy, etc), having direct consequence on the economic and physical well-being of citizens of other nations.

Maybe that can point a finger at why America's government is so despised historically around the globe...

I don't know. Having grown up in Germany where America has been heavily involved post WWII - politically, militarily and economically - I'd have to tell you that Germany was better off for that involvement (one just needed to look to the part of Germany where the US wasn't involved to see it - and that is where I actually lived) and the US was most certainly not despised in that part of the world. I still remember when the US troops left West Berlin - the citizenry of that city has been nothing but thankful for what the US forces have done there from WWII until 1994.

Has the US made mistakes in the past and does the US continue to make mistakes? Sure. No doubt about it. Has the US done good around the world, helped nations in distress get back on their feet? Absolutely. Let's not paint a darker picture of this nation then can be justified. We are, after all, not the root of all the problems in the world. Not even close.

All that has, btw, not much to do with the issue at hand. So,

I agree with your assessment of Germany. We do not live in a black/white world by any means. I merely suggest that there's always more than meets the eye, conspiracies notwithstanding.

However, I do believe that some of the actions that are carried out in our name, those of which I have implied here in this thread as well as in others, have a major part in at least influencing and at most causing, many of the international tides that result- among other results, in a flow of illegal immigration towards this nation. Germany is currently on the Visa-Waiver Program and has benefited directly from the Marshall Plan. Many of the feeder nations that supply cheap illegal labor to the US do not have the same economical history, and very different social circumstances that create the current state of living for their citizens.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

However, I do believe that some of the actions that are carried out in our name, those of which I have implied here in this thread as well as in others, have a major part in at least influencing and at most causing, many of the international tides that result- among other results, in a flow of illegal immigration towards this nation. Germany is currently on the Visa-Waiver Program and has benefited directly from the Marshall Plan. Many of the feeder nations that supply cheap illegal labor to the US do not have the same economical history, and very different social circumstances that create the current state of living for their citizens.

The main feeder nation of illegal labor in the US has actually undergone a development to become an upper middle income country, has the highest per capita income in Latin America and has become the 14th largest economy in the world. It's a mainly export oriented economy - interestingly, same applies to Germany - that has improved it's trade balance sheet from a trade deficit with the US on the range of $1.5bn pre-NAFTA to a trade surplus of over $64bn in 2006 and an impressive $60bn+ in the first ten months of 2007 already. Mexico sees the economic benefits of free trade agreements which is why, following NAFTA, it has entered into eleven more of them now covering some 44 countries around the globe.

If anything, the economic cooperation with the US has benefited Mexico and yet, the more the country benefits, the more illegal labor it send towards the US. There's simply more to it than economic circumstances or some supposed economic drain that the US creates for it's neighbor to the south.

Edited December 25, 2007 by Mr. Big Dog

[HAL 9000 96]

Its not merely economic drainage. It may be per capita income that is what is looked at, but per capita income based on an average where wealth is not distributed on a national middle class model but rather a typical third world economical model. Its a no-brainer to see that the corruption is set up to maintain a status quo and that the corruption stems from the tip of the tower.

This is a good point to bring out the corruption talk since its the direct link between the support it garners directly and indirectly from Washington and by our Dollar (as well, to please to sensitive crowd out there, from the Euro and European governments that also do the same we do there). There's no refuting they're changing aspects of their national economy for the better, and even if we were to use old Reaganomics you could see a trickle-down effect by logic, but the fact of the matter is that those at the top do not like to share their entrenched domination of the local economy.

Once more segments of the population there are educated and in a better position to improve their country for the better of all, or at least those that can match willpower to manpower, then things can improve.

Alas, maybe as an alternative to just simply throwing people out (to then have to do it all over again once they return illegaly) is to use those that arrive here, offer them a program whereby instead of them leeching our system, they can be trained with the condition they legally return to their countries of origin with the goal of improving conditions for all. Sounds naive and dreamy, but its doable. We'd save deportation and silly-fences costs that don't work, and in the long term help out the rest of the planet without feeling the burden of a power that meddles in the sovereignty of other nations much like we do to others in order to maintain our hegemony.

Its a very interesting shade of grey.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Its not merely economic drainage. It may be per capita income that is what is looked at, but per capita income based on an average where wealth is not distributed on a national middle class model but rather a typical third world economical model. Its a no-brainer to see that the corruption is set up to maintain a status quo and that the corruption stems from the tip of the tower.

This is a good point to bring out the corruption talk since its the direct link between the support it garners directly and indirectly from Washington and by our Dollar (as well, to please to sensitive crowd out there, from the Euro and European governments that also do the same we do there). There's no refuting they're changing aspects of their national economy for the better, and even if we were to use old Reaganomics you could see a trickle-down effect by logic, but the fact of the matter is that those at the top do not like to share their entrenched domination of the local economy.

Once more segments of the population there are educated and in a better position to improve their country for the better of all, or at least those that can match willpower to manpower, then things can improve.

Alas, maybe as an alternative to just simply throwing people out (to then have to do it all over again once they return illegaly) is to use those that arrive here, offer them a program whereby instead of them leeching our system, they can be trained with the condition they legally return to their countries of origin with the goal of improving conditions for all. Sounds naive and dreamy, but its doable. We'd save deportation and silly-fences costs that don't work, and in the long term help out the rest of the planet without feeling the burden of a power that meddles in the sovereignty of other nations much like we do to others in order to maintain our hegemony.

Its a very interesting shade of grey.

The corruption is something that we didn't create nor is it something we can eliminate. The Mexican people, rather than making a run for it, are the one's that hold the key to fixing that issue and they ought to do so. One of the reasons the Mexican politicians encourage the departure of their poor and uneducated to the north is that this one of their pressure valves - if not the pressure valve - that allows them to continue their corrupt exploitation of what overall would appear to be a rather robust economy. I don't think we should support that effort as it is obviously not going to be a long term solution on either side of the border.

As for the fourth paragraph above, I highlighted the essence of it. That ain't no shade of gray but rather a burning bright pink.

[HAL 9000 96]

Its not merely economic drainage. It may be per capita income that is what is looked at, but per capita income based on an average where wealth is not distributed on a national middle class model but rather a typical third world economical model. Its a no-brainer to see that the corruption is set up to maintain a status quo and that the corruption stems from the tip of the tower.

This is a good point to bring out the corruption talk since its the direct link between the support it garners directly and indirectly from Washington and by our Dollar (as well, to please to sensitive crowd out there, from the Euro and European governments that also do the same we do there). There's no refuting they're changing aspects of their national economy for the better, and even if we were to use old Reaganomics you could see a trickle-down effect by logic, but the fact of the matter is that those at the top do not like to share their entrenched domination of the local economy.

Once more segments of the population there are educated and in a better position to improve their country for the better of all, or at least those that can match willpower to manpower, then things can improve.

Alas, maybe as an alternative to just simply throwing people out (to then have to do it all over again once they return illegaly) is to use those that arrive here, offer them a program whereby instead of them leeching our system, they can be trained with the condition they legally return to their countries of origin with the goal of improving conditions for all. Sounds naive and dreamy, but its doable. We'd save deportation and silly-fences costs that don't work, and in the long term help out the rest of the planet without feeling the burden of a power that meddles in the sovereignty of other nations much like we do to others in order to maintain our hegemony.

Its a very interesting shade of grey.

The corruption is something that we didn't create nor is it something we can eliminate. The Mexican people, rather than making a run for it, are the one's that hold the key to fixing that issue and they ought to do so. One of the reasons the Mexican politicians encourage the departure of their poor and uneducated to the north is that this one of their pressure valves - if not the pressure valve - that allows them to continue their corrupt exploitation of what overall would appear to be a rather robust economy. I don't think we should support that effort as it is obviously not going to be a long term solution on either side of the border.

As for the fourth paragraph above, I highlighted the essence of it. That ain't no shade of gray but rather a burning bright pink.

I care to disagree. It is my strong opinion that we as a nation enable corruption overseas as a mechanism for our own benefit. This has measurable consequences that creates topics like the one we are discussing. We can go at it over and over while scores of more illegals come into the US under the reality that is their individual circumstances under the umbrella economy that has pushed individuals into this behavior. Call it survival.

Unfortunately, the majority of public opinion at this time will care more to spend more in the long run by repeating rounds of deportations rather than invest less in creating solutions that can fix the symptom that is otherwise known as illegal immigration.

Of course the method is not long term. Its not supposed to be! By teaching them to fish for themselves and take advantage of the bountiful land they themselves have, we are in effect creating a situation that less and less illegals will be here to create headaches for red-blooded Americans. Then again, most will take an easier road and completely ignore the root causes of the issues and therefore perpetuate the cycle. Imagine, though... this pressure valve becoming smaller and smaller as illegals continue to return from El Norte armed with knowledge and education (different things) and the power of suffrage to help adjust the situation a little more each election period towards a healthy economy.. for ALL in their own respective nation. THAT would be quite a legacy to leave the world.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Its not merely economic drainage. It may be per capita income that is what is looked at, but per capita income based on an average where wealth is not distributed on a national middle class model but rather a typical third world economical model. Its a no-brainer to see that the corruption is set up to maintain a status quo and that the corruption stems from the tip of the tower.

This is a good point to bring out the corruption talk since its the direct link between the support it garners directly and indirectly from Washington and by our Dollar (as well, to please to sensitive crowd out there, from the Euro and European governments that also do the same we do there). There's no refuting they're changing aspects of their national economy for the better, and even if we were to use old Reaganomics you could see a trickle-down effect by logic, but the fact of the matter is that those at the top do not like to share their entrenched domination of the local economy.

Once more segments of the population there are educated and in a better position to improve their country for the better of all, or at least those that can match willpower to manpower, then things can improve.

Alas, maybe as an alternative to just simply throwing people out (to then have to do it all over again once they return illegaly) is to use those that arrive here, offer them a program whereby instead of them leeching our system, they can be trained with the condition they legally return to their countries of origin with the goal of improving conditions for all. Sounds naive and dreamy, but its doable. We'd save deportation and silly-fences costs that don't work, and in the long term help out the rest of the planet without feeling the burden of a power that meddles in the sovereignty of other nations much like we do to others in order to maintain our hegemony.

Its a very interesting shade of grey.

The corruption is something that we didn't create nor is it something we can eliminate. The Mexican people, rather than making a run for it, are the one's that hold the key to fixing that issue and they ought to do so. One of the reasons the Mexican politicians encourage the departure of their poor and uneducated to the north is that this one of their pressure valves - if not the pressure valve - that allows them to continue their corrupt exploitation of what overall would appear to be a rather robust economy. I don't think we should support that effort as it is obviously not going to be a long term solution on either side of the border.

As for the fourth paragraph above, I highlighted the essence of it. That ain't no shade of gray but rather a burning bright pink.

I care to disagree. It is my strong opinion that we as a nation enable corruption overseas as a mechanism for our own benefit.

What benefit do we supposedly have from the corruption south of the border? I tell you: None. Which leaves your premise skating on rather thin ice.

Remember, we supported the re-building of Western Europe from rubble after WWII and, surprise, surprise, did not promote, create or support corrupt forms of government but supported the development of free societies based on democratically elected governments and a free market economy. That is what's in our interest and that is what we support.

And don't even think about taking this over to the Middle East. Apples and Oranges. While both are fruit, comparing them is not particularly fruitful.

Nobody wants to spend large sums on deportations. I think the current trend is to work on enforcing employment laws and making the US overall less hospitable to folks that are here and shouldn't be so they can head on back on their own. That will be the trend and it'll work. Not only will it remove illegal aliens by means other than actual deportation but it'll also send the right signal to our neighbors down south: It ain't worth it to come.

Edited December 26, 2007 by Mr. Big Dog

[AnewKINDofFEELIN 0]

You can't hide from the problems we allow to continue happening. Better invest in fixing the problem in the first place and avoiding allowing our public officials and private citizens to play Monopoly with other countries' citizens.

Do you mean ... the illegal ones ... the ones that invaded a sovereign country?

Invaded? "to enter for conquest or plunder"

Time to choose a new catch word.

[NavarreMan 10]

I didn't feel pointed at. I'm hardly anti-immigrant; I doubt anyone here is anti-immigrant. Just keeping the subject clear because muddying the water between legal and illegal is a common liberal tactic.

Have you been paying attention to what the current administration has been doing???

[natty bumppo 297]

You can't hide from the problems we allow to continue happening. Better invest in fixing the problem in the first place and avoiding allowing our public officials and private citizens to play Monopoly with other countries' citizens.

Do you mean ... the illegal ones ... the ones that invaded a sovereign country?

Invaded? "to enter for conquest or plunder"

Time to choose a new catch word.

It fits ... and is true. Don't like the truth ... feel free to imagine your own.