down side to front loading K-1 petition??

[Ryan76 46]

I had started another topic and I was asking questions about the best way to put together the folders/documents for my front-loaded K-1. I want to include the necessary items for the I129F packet, as well as a folder/packet for proof of ongoing relationship.

Someone came into the thread and recommended NOT front loading, and now I'm beginning to second guess myself.

My fiance lives in Bogota, Colombia...whether or not that matters I'm not sure. I had been under the impression that front loading could only help.

What are your thoughts?

[Juan & Nan 12]

I had started another topic and I was asking questions about the best way to put together the folders/documents for my front-loaded K-1. I want to include the necessary items for the I129F packet, as well as a folder/packet for proof of ongoing relationship.

Someone came into the thread and recommended NOT front loading, and now I'm beginning to second guess myself.

My fiance lives in Bogota, Colombia...whether or not that matters I'm not sure. I had been under the impression that front loading could only help.

What are your thoughts?

What is front loading?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Front loading is putting evidence in the I-129F petition to be used later at the K-1 interview at the local consulate/embassy. The theory is that anything sent to the USCIS with the I-129F will be forwarded to the NVC, and then on to the embassy or consulate that will be conducting the visa interview with the beneficiary.

The downside is that too much extraneous material may cause your relevant evidence to be overlooked, or omitted.

Edited September 25, 2011 by Crusty Old Perv

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

It depends very much on the consulate, and what evidence you frontload.

When a consulate denies a visa and returns a petition they are asking USCIS to revoke the approval, essentially saying that the petition never should have been approved. They have only two valid basis for making this request. The first is that they have discovered evidence which they believe would have resulted in the petition being denied if USCIS had known about it. The second is that they have discovered something that USCIS should have noticed, and that they believe USCIS clearly erred when they approved the petition. The second reason is unusual, but USCIS does occasionally make mistakes. The first reason is the most common.

Consular officers sometimes have to resort to dirty tricks in order to conjure up a reason to deny a visa, especially in high fraud countries. They usually do this when they have a strong suspicion that something isn't right about the relationship. When they intend on denying then they will sometimes cite reasons which may actually not be true. For example, the consulate in Saigon expects an engaged couple to have had a traditional Vietnamese engagement ceremony (see my avatar), and they impose some reasonably strict expectations on that requirement, which includes a celebration involving guests that number in the hundreds. It's very easy for a consular officer in Saigon to cite the engagement ceremony as a reason for denying the visa, claiming that this is a violation of longstanding local tradition and customs. In fact, the consular officer may not have even asked for evidence that they had an engagement ceremony, or may have even refused to accept the evidence if the beneficiary offered it.

This is where frontloading comes in.

A consular officer cannot deny the existence of evidence if it was included with the petition. For example, a consular officer in Saigon can't say that a couple never had an engagement ceremony if the petitioner included pictures of the ceremony and celebration with the petition, and specifically labeled the pictures as such. The consular officer also couldn't claim that the celebration was too small to satisfy tradition and customs if one of the pictures clearly shows a banquet hall filled with more than 100 people.

Occasionally, a consular officer will deny on a basis for which evidence to counter the CO's claim was frontloaded with the petition. In these cases the CO usually just didn't see the evidence before issuing the denial. If USCIS actually readjudicates a returned petition in this case then they'll almost always reaffirm the approval and send the petition back to the consulate.

Frontloading can be very useful if:

1. You specifically know what sort of things are cited as reasons for denial at your consulate.

2. You know what aspects of your own case might be considered red flags at your consulate.

3. Your frontloaded evidence proves you've met local customary requirements, or it addresses specific red flags in your case.

On the other hand, if you just start loading up your petition with all of the evidence you've got then you're setting your fiancee up for a difficult interview. For example, if you include 100 pages of chat logs then you've given the consular officer LOTS of evidence the consular officer can use to grill your fiancee.

Consular Officer: On February 14th of 2009 you thanked your fiance for the Valentines Day gift. What exactly was the gift, and what exactly did your fiance say in response?

Would her memory be good enough to know exactly what you said on that day? The CO has the answer in front of him in black and white, so he'll know if her answer is correct.

Frontloaded evidence should either help support your case or specifically address red flags, but it's crucial that your fiancee know in detail everything you've frontloaded. In many cases, a consular officer will ask a question not knowing the precise correct answer - they just want to know if the beneficiary has a credible answer. Almost any believable answer is better than "I don't know". In the case of frontloaded evidence, you've given the consular officer the correct answers, so your fiancee had better know them.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Good explanation!

[felo391971 4]

I DID front Loading during the process my REFS were not for evidence just mistakes i made in forms during the process

I got all my front loading documents at the interview the consul was funny telling my wife that she never saw so much documents for a interview

I belive she they ask my wife a total of 4 or 5 questions and return all documents .

They give us so much documents back that i end up destroying must of them right there in the embassy because i didnt had a place to store them

and for my surprise

I even saw my first documents that were send to USCIS en California .

About the Bogota part is great you are going to save money on airfare and hotels .

all the best for you 2

[Ryan76 46]

Thanks for the great responses. I will post a few replies/concerns this evening when I get off work. I'm wondering if I should duplicate my original post in the Latin America / Colombia forums to get some more opinions specifically about the embassy in Colombia.

Thanks again!!

[Usui Takumi 1,562]

It depends very much on the consulate, and what evidence you frontload.

When a consulate denies a visa and returns a petition they are asking USCIS to revoke the approval, essentially saying that the petition never should have been approved. They have only two valid basis for making this request. The first is that they have discovered evidence which they believe would have resulted in the petition being denied if USCIS had known about it. The second is that they have discovered something that USCIS should have noticed, and that they believe USCIS clearly erred when they approved the petition. The second reason is unusual, but USCIS does occasionally make mistakes. The first reason is the most common.

Consular officers sometimes have to resort to dirty tricks in order to conjure up a reason to deny a visa, especially in high fraud countries. They usually do this when they have a strong suspicion that something isn't right about the relationship. When they intend on denying then they will sometimes cite reasons which may actually not be true. For example, the consulate in Saigon expects an engaged couple to have had a traditional Vietnamese engagement ceremony (see my avatar), and they impose some reasonably strict expectations on that requirement, which includes a celebration involving guests that number in the hundreds. It's very easy for a consular officer in Saigon to cite the engagement ceremony as a reason for denying the visa, claiming that this is a violation of longstanding local tradition and customs. In fact, the consular officer may not have even asked for evidence that they had an engagement ceremony, or may have even refused to accept the evidence if the beneficiary offered it.

This is where frontloading comes in.

A consular officer cannot deny the existence of evidence if it was included with the petition. For example, a consular officer in Saigon can't say that a couple never had an engagement ceremony if the petitioner included pictures of the ceremony and celebration with the petition, and specifically labeled the pictures as such. The consular officer also couldn't claim that the celebration was too small to satisfy tradition and customs if one of the pictures clearly shows a banquet hall filled with more than 100 people.

Occasionally, a consular officer will deny on a basis for which evidence to counter the CO's claim was frontloaded with the petition. In these cases the CO usually just didn't see the evidence before issuing the denial. If USCIS actually readjudicates a returned petition in this case then they'll almost always reaffirm the approval and send the petition back to the consulate.

Frontloading can be very useful if:

1. You specifically know what sort of things are cited as reasons for denial at your consulate.

2. You know what aspects of your own case might be considered red flags at your consulate.

3. Your frontloaded evidence proves you've met local customary requirements, or it addresses specific red flags in your case.

On the other hand, if you just start loading up your petition with all of the evidence you've got then you're setting your fiancee up for a difficult interview. For example, if you include 100 pages of chat logs then you've given the consular officer LOTS of evidence the consular officer can use to grill your fiancee.

Consular Officer: On February 14th of 2009 you thanked your fiance for the Valentines Day gift. What exactly was the gift, and what exactly did your fiance say in response?

Would her memory be good enough to know exactly what you said on that day? The CO has the answer in front of him in black and white, so he'll know if her answer is correct.

Frontloaded evidence should either help support your case or specifically address red flags, but it's crucial that your fiancee know in detail everything you've frontloaded. In many cases, a consular officer will ask a question not knowing the precise correct answer - they just want to know if the beneficiary has a credible answer. Almost any believable answer is better than "I don't know". In the case of frontloaded evidence, you've given the consular officer the correct answers, so your fiancee had better know them.

Hi Jim,

A bit off topic, do items you submit at the K1 stage stay in the case file through US citizenship? And does USCIS review the old evidence at each stage?

The reason I ask is that at both AOS and ROC we provided very little evidence. For instance at ROC we sent one utility bill, the front page of a single bank statement, an insurance statement, lease, and two signed statements. Most if not all was the last 2-3 months prior to filing.

I fully expected an RFE but instead we were approved extremely quickly - within about 60 days.

Now our K1 evidence looked more like ROC evidence honestly. We had a shared residence in the UK, so I submitted all of that - combined UK lease, combined utilities and council taxes etc. I have been wondering if the old K1 evidence helped at the later stages.

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

Hi Jim,

A bit off topic, do items you submit at the K1 stage stay in the case file through US citizenship? And does USCIS review the old evidence at each stage?

The reason I ask is that at both AOS and ROC we provided very little evidence. For instance at ROC we sent one utility bill, the front page of a single bank statement, an insurance statement, lease, and two signed statements. Most if not all was the last 2-3 months prior to filing.

I fully expected an RFE but instead we were approved extremely quickly - within about 60 days.

Now our K1 evidence looked more like ROC evidence honestly. We had a shared residence in the UK, so I submitted all of that - combined UK lease, combined utilities and council taxes etc. I have been wondering if the old K1 evidence helped at the later stages.

Computerized records maintained in the various systems are retained for a period of time determined by policy for each system. For example, records in the VIS system (mostly having to do with verification of citizenship) are stored for 10 years, which coincides with the statute of limitations for fraudulent or misuse of documents related to citizenship, naturalization, or US passports.

Paper records are sent to the National Record Center for long-term storage of inactive files. A service center or field office can request a file be pulled if it becomes active again; e.g., a new petition is filed. I don't believe files in the National Record Center are ever destroyed. People routinely request documents from the NRC (via FOIA requests) about dead relatives while doing genealogy research. They've got naturalization files going back to 1906, and immigrant visa files going back to 1924.

[Ryan76 46]

"Consular Officer: On February 14th of 2009 you thanked your fiance for the Valentines Day gift. What exactly was the gift, and what exactly did your fiance say in response?"

To me, these types of questions seem ridiculous. For example, I was thinking about using moneygram receipts as proof of ongoing relationship. The first time I sent her Money was in November of 2009 (her birthday) and she bought shoes for work. I honestly have no idea what her "exact response" was. I mean, i remember she thanked me and said she was happy to have new shoes, but I do not recall her "Exact" response as written in a letter. I mean, it's almost like they expect you to have a 100% memory (or photographic memory). We've exchanged hundreds of letters and I'd like to send half a dozen or so as "proof" of our relationship, but I don't have everyone of them memorized and I'm sure she doesn't either. Will they give you a little leeway and understand that we can't possibly remember everything we've said/written to each other over the course of a 2+ year relationship?

I realize that alot of people attempt fraud.....but do these people have multiple plain tickets to and from their fiances country, dozens of fotos, phone records of calls made on a daily basis, etc?? I can't think of petitioner who would "fake" a relationship yet still call the beneficiary 3 times a day and visit her for multi-week vacations every 7 months.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

"Consular Officer: On February 14th of 2009 you thanked your fiance for the Valentines Day gift. What exactly was the gift, and what exactly did your fiance say in response?"

To me, these types of questions seem ridiculous. For example, I was thinking about using moneygram receipts as proof of ongoing relationship. The first time I sent her Money was in November of 2009 (her birthday) and she bought shoes for work. I honestly have no idea what her "exact response" was. I mean, i remember she thanked me and said she was happy to have new shoes, but I do not recall her "Exact" response as written in a letter. I mean, it's almost like they expect you to have a 100% memory (or photographic memory). We've exchanged hundreds of letters and I'd like to send half a dozen or so as "proof" of our relationship, but I don't have everyone of them memorized and I'm sure she doesn't either. Will they give you a little leeway and understand that we can't possibly remember everything we've said/written to each other over the course of a 2+ year relationship?

Think of a set of two scales. One scale says "bona fide" relationship. The other says "fraud". If nothing is on the fraud scale, and nothing is on the bona fide scale, you still don't get an approval. You have to get something on the bona fide scale. The applicant doesn't have to know everything about the beneficiary, but the applicant does have to know somethings about the beneficiary.

What the applicant should do is say, "I don't know," if they honestly don't know. Sometimes the CO may try to trip up an applicant by asking something out of the blue that the applicant couldn't possibly know, just to catch the applicant in a lie, to look for a "tell", in poker terms.

I realize that alot of people attempt fraud.....but do these people have multiple plain tickets to and from their fiances country, dozens of fotos, phone records of calls made on a daily basis, etc?? I can't think of petitioner who would "fake" a relationship yet still call the beneficiary 3 times a day and visit her for multi-week vacations every 7 months.

Yes.

Edited October 2, 2011 by Crusty Old Perv

[JimVaPhuong 4,863]

"Consular Officer: On February 14th of 2009 you thanked your fiance for the Valentines Day gift. What exactly was the gift, and what exactly did your fiance say in response?"

To me, these types of questions seem ridiculous. For example, I was thinking about using moneygram receipts as proof of ongoing relationship. The first time I sent her Money was in November of 2009 (her birthday) and she bought shoes for work. I honestly have no idea what her "exact response" was. I mean, i remember she thanked me and said she was happy to have new shoes, but I do not recall her "Exact" response as written in a letter. I mean, it's almost like they expect you to have a 100% memory (or photographic memory). We've exchanged hundreds of letters and I'd like to send half a dozen or so as "proof" of our relationship, but I don't have everyone of them memorized and I'm sure she doesn't either. Will they give you a little leeway and understand that we can't possibly remember everything we've said/written to each other over the course of a 2+ year relationship?

I realize that alot of people attempt fraud.....but do these people have multiple plain tickets to and from their fiances country, dozens of fotos, phone records of calls made on a daily basis, etc?? I can't think of petitioner who would "fake" a relationship yet still call the beneficiary 3 times a day and visit her for multi-week vacations every 7 months.

This is why you must be careful what evidence you frontload, and also why the beneficiary must be intimately familiar with any evidence they hand over to the consular officer. They're providing the consular officer with the answers to many potential questions, so the beneficiary must know those answers, as well.

I would never recommend that a beneficiary hand over two hundred pages of chat transcripts, for example. That would be comparable to handing them an encyclopedia and daring them to quiz you on it's contents. By all means, bring an impressive stack of papers as evidence. If you're asked for chat transcripts then hand them a carefully cherry picked selection that helps make your case of a bona fide relationship, and that you've already read over thoroughly. If you hand the whole stack to the CO then he or she is going to pick a few pages at random, and there's a reasonable chance the pages they pick are going to be boring conversations, or worse... you and your fiance practicing for the interview. If you choose the evidence you give them then you'll know that any page they select to read is going to be a good one.

This doesn't mean they won't get information from other sources. For example, some consulates have been known to get a Lexis Nexis report on the petitioner, and then pull info from the report to question the beneficiary.

[fantonledzepp 159]

Hi people. I was wondering about this front-loading business. I didn't know about it at the time that I filed my I-129F, but I sure am glad I sent something. I sent in 4 email threads, they each have like 4-5 emails, most short and sweet. I sure hope this enough to prove our relationship at this stage, as we haven't received our NOA2 yet. I've read that this is absolutely crucial for the interview at the Guayaquil Consulate, and I'm glad I sent in that info, along with 4 photographs, receipts, hotel bills, passport stamps and boarding passes. I sure hope it's enough for the interview, and I of course plan on bringing a lot more evidence to the interview...

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

12/5/11 - Mailed I-129F

12/9/11 - Received NOA1

12/21/11 - Last updated by USCIS

Still waiting....

[TBoneTX 43,157]

Hi people. I was wondering about this front-loading business.

Jim's words here about front-loading need to be enshrined in the pantheon of all-time VJ posts, si man.