Federal poverty guidelines

[SuicideBlonde 0]

My fiancee (the suicide blonde )'s only source of income is $884 a month in SSDI (i.e. she used to work but is now disabled) and another $120 or so in food stamps (she will lose the latter but not the former when we will get married). The federal poverty guideline:

[Persons in family: Poverty guideline]

1: $10,830 ($13,538 @ 125%)

2: 14,570 ($18,213 @ 125%)

I have a couple of questions regarding this:

1) Does the "Persons in family" column include the sponsor by default, i.e. is the number of persons for whom the poverty guideline has to be reached always 2 in the context of the K-1 visa?

2) My fiancee only has $884 * 12 = $10608 of income on a yearly basis. However, I just sold some real estate worth $30000 and will put this money in her bank account. Should that be enough to get us through the I-134 part of our application or will more be required? I own two apartments in the United States, one of which will be rented out through a property rental agency at $700 a month (12 month lease). The other one is unfinished and will not be rented out until the first quarter of next year.

3) Our I-129F package was sent two weeks ago. Will the $30000 have enough time to 'mature' in her bank account before the I-134 will have to be sent ? I believe any sum needs to have been in a bank account for at least 3 months?

I read elsewhere that some embassies (e.g. the London one) would allow me to prove that I will not become a burden to the state myself (rather than putting that burden on my fiancee, whose only source of income is SSDI). I have a house with a deed value of $118000 in the US, which will soon be let for $700 a month, and $30000 in the bank. I currently work as a systems analyst for Microsoft, with 10 years of previous experience as a systems and network administrator. I have never been fired from any job and have only ever been out of a job for 5 months, 3 months of which (the whole 90 days of the Visa Waiver) I spent in the US working on my house and with my then girlfriend.

What would be the best course of action for the two of us?

[Audy_Rob 26]

My fiancee (the suicide blonde )'s only source of income is $884 a month in SSDI (i.e. she used to work but is now disabled) and another $120 or so in food stamps (she will lose the latter but not the former when we will get married). The federal poverty guideline:

[Persons in family: Poverty guideline]

1: $10,830 ($13,538 @ 125%)

2: 14,570 ($18,213 @ 125%)

I have a couple of questions regarding this:

1) Does the "Persons in family" column include the sponsor by default, i.e. is the number of persons for whom the poverty guideline has to be reached always 2 in the context of the K-1 visa?

2) My fiancee only has $884 * 12 = $10608 of income on a yearly basis. However, I just sold some real estate worth $30000 and will put this money in her bank account. Should that be enough to get us through the I-134 part of our application or will more be required? I own two apartments in the United States, one of which will be rented out through a property rental agency at $700 a month (12 month lease). The other one is unfinished and will not be rented out until the first quarter of next year.

3) Our I-129F package was sent two weeks ago. Will the $30000 have enough time to 'mature' in her bank account before the I-134 will have to be sent ? I believe any sum needs to have been in a bank account for at least 3 months?

I read elsewhere that some embassies (e.g. the London one) would allow me to prove that I will not become a burden to the state myself (rather than putting that burden on my fiancee, whose only source of income is SSDI). I have a house with a deed value of $118000 in the US, which will soon be let for $700 a month, and $30000 in the bank. I currently work as a systems analyst for Microsoft, with 10 years of previous experience as a systems and network administrator. I have never been fired from any job and have only ever been out of a job for 5 months, 3 months of which (the whole 90 days of the Visa Waiver) I spent in the US working on my house and with my then girlfriend.

What would be the best course of action for the two of us?

Some answers. Not all (what do you expect for free).

1) The best and simplest course of action would be a joint sponsor because you are getting very confusing with all the variables involved here.

2) She needs to put 2 for family size unless there is a joint sponsor. Then it depends on the income of the joint sponsor as to how you divide up your burden on them. The I-134 instructions and the I-864 form/instructions gives a good explanation of how to count people.

3) In general, the Embassies want you to hit 125%, not 100%

4) In general, as you can see in the I-864 form/instructions, page 9, Section 29, Assets are five times the replacement in income, so your 30,000 counts as about 6,000 of income. Add it to your fiancee's SSDI and you are still a little shy for 2 people.

5) Your previous salary, employer, job performance is irrelevant for this. You cannot even work until you get EAD.

6) If one of the apartments with a value of 118,000 then you have the assets to qualify. But I do not know what you mean by deed value. It needs to be appraised value - mortgages and other encumberances.

Good luck.

[SuicideBlonde 0]

Thank you for your reply. So if I understand it correctly we will have a shortage of ($14570 * 1.25) - ($884 * 12) - ($30000 / 5) = $1605. Multiply that by 5 and we get to $8025, which is the sum I would have to come up with in addition to the $30000. Either that, or my fiancee would need to have ($1605 / 12) = $133.75 of extra income every month. Is that correct?

[pushbrk 12,269]

Some answers. Not all (what do you expect for free).

1) The best and simplest course of action would be a joint sponsor because you are getting very confusing with all the variables involved here.

2) She needs to put 2 for family size unless there is a joint sponsor. Then it depends on the income of the joint sponsor as to how you divide up your burden on them. The I-134 instructions and the I-864 form/instructions gives a good explanation of how to count people.

3) In general, the Embassies want you to hit 125%, not 100%

4) In general, as you can see in the I-864 form/instructions, page 9, Section 29, Assets are five times the replacement in income, so your 30,000 counts as about 6,000 of income. Add it to your fiancee's SSDI and you are still a little shy for 2 people.

5) Your previous salary, employer, job performance is irrelevant for this. You cannot even work until you get EAD.

6) If one of the apartments with a value of 118,000 then you have the assets to qualify. But I do not know what you mean by deed value. It needs to be appraised value - mortgages and other encumberances.

Good luck.

The above reply has errors. For a K visa, there is no "joint sponsor" and no combining of incomes. Some individual must qualify on their own whether it be the petitioner or an additional "co-sponsor". The ratio used for assets replacing income shortfall is 3 to 1 for a fiance or spouse of US Citizen, not 5 to 1 but the more the better.

I would get a co-sponsor who qualifies for their own household size plus the immigrant. (not plus the petitioner AND immigrant) for the visa stage and then when adjusting status, use the joint assets on the I-864 where it's allowed.

You can add any financial information as to the beneficiary's assets that you want. Whether or just how it will be considered is impossible to predict but it WILL NOT hurt anything.

[Nik+Heather 121]

Actually, for the I-134 it is the income shortfall x3. Furthermore, on the I-864 for spouses only it is the income shortfall x3 (It IS x5 for non-spouses) It's commonly quoted on VJ (even by me in the past) but on a recent re-read of the instructions I caught that.

I don't disagree with the rest of what Audy_Rob said regarding joint sponsors and the relevancy of your job history to the process.

I would check with some others going through the Netherlands. It could be that you would be able to "self sponsor" your visa with your assets. No transfer required. Putting a big chunk of money into the USC's bank account can look just like a buy-off in a fraud case. This is why when assets are used they will request several bank statements, or even a letter from the bank regarding the account history. They will see that big chunk coming in. Plus, only $10k can be brought to the US without incurring taxes etc. You'll want to look into that kind of thing.

In order to calculate the income short fall you take what she needs: $18,213, minus what she has: $10608 to get $7605 shortfall x3 is $22815 in required assets to meet the 125% poverty guidelines for a household of two.

Your other realestate income ($700 in rent) or the equity which is the appraised value (recent appraisal required) - Mortgage owed could also count towards this, but as it may not be needed per the above paragraph, it may be too cumbersome to document.

[SuicideBlonde 0]

Thanks everyone! That's great news! My fiancee already opened a checking account and I intended to deposit the money in there. Now you are saying they might see that as a buyoff though? We have known each other for over 2 years and just want to start a life together. House, kid(s), the works... She cannot meet the I-134 requirements on her own due to her being on SSDI so I have to contribute as well. It's only normal that I supplement whatever is missing then? Jesus Christ, the only thing that should show is how far I'm willing to go to be together with her. I don't see a difference with sponsoring myself? We have the funds to prove that I will not become a burden to the state and that should be that. I already asked the Dublin embassy (I work in Dublin, Ireland). They cannot be contacted directly but instead give you an e-mail address that one should write to. I did, but they never replied.

I was going to send her the funds this week. What is the deadline for the I-134 if I may ask? I thought the only requirement was that the money would be 'seasoned', i.e. at least 3 months in the bank account?

[SuicideBlonde 0]

Co-sponsorship, unfortunately, is not an option.

[Anh map 2,098]

Have you contacted the Amsterdam (or Dublin if that is where you will be interviewing) consulate directly to learn what they advise regarding "self sponsorship" or depositing funds in your fiancee's account? What happens in other consulates may or may not apply to Amsterdam or Dublin.

If the I-134 requirements cannot be met (and/or a co-sponsor cannot be found) you could consider marrying and having your then spouse submit a CR1 spouse visa petition. This process would utilize the I-864 where your assets can be applied.

-edit to add Dublin-

Edited April 20, 2010 by Anh map

[Nik+Heather 121]

It might be worth a topic in the Europe regional subforum to see if Dublin usually accepts (or rejects) self sponsorship with assets.

[Audy_Rob 26]

The above reply has errors. For a K visa, there is no "joint sponsor" and no combining of incomes. Some individual must qualify on their own whether it be the petitioner or an additional "co-sponsor". The ratio used for assets replacing income shortfall is 3 to 1 for a fiance or spouse of US Citizen, not 5 to 1 but the more the better.

I would get a co-sponsor who qualifies for their own household size plus the immigrant. (not plus the petitioner AND immigrant) for the visa stage and then when adjusting status, use the joint assets on the I-864 where it's allowed.

You can add any financial information as to the beneficiary's assets that you want. Whether or just how it will be considered is impossible to predict but it WILL NOT hurt anything.

The above reply has errors. There are numerous Consulates that do and have allowed a joint sponsor for the K-1 visa. You will need to check with the Consulate. If you spend time reading these pages, you will see numerous beneficiaries relying on a joint sponsor for the K-1.

The ratio of assets for an alien Fiancee[\b], not spouse, is 5 to 1 as clearly stated in the I-864 instructions, page 9 Section 29 of the form as I previously stated. The poster has not read the instructions. This information has been confirmed by Bobby of "Bobby + Umit". The above poster is erroneously quoting the value if you were the alien spouse.

[TracyTN 237]

The above reply has errors. There are numerous Consulates that do and have allowed a joint sponsor for the K-1 visa. You will need to check with the Consulate. If you spend time reading these pages, you will see numerous beneficiaries relying on a joint sponsor for the K-1.

spouse.

Is it possible that you and pushbrk are in agreement, although he is using the term 'co sponsor' while you're using the term 'joint sponsor'? (But in actuality, you mean the same thing?)

[Audy_Rob 26]

Is it possible that you and pushbrk are in agreement, although he is using the term 'co sponsor' while you're using the term 'joint sponsor'? (But in actuality, you mean the same thing?)

If that is the case, pushbrk is incorrect as there is no reference whatsoever to a "co-sponsor" however there is a joint sponsor. So he is incorrect about the 3x and incorrect that there is no such things as a joint sponsor. See Page 2 of the I-864 instruction-form.

Page 2 of I-864, right-handed column.

"A joint sponsor whose income and/or assets equal at least 125 percent of the Poverty Guidelines. See question below for more information on joint sponsors."

[SuicideBlonde 0]

Audy_Rob, I thought the I-864 pertained to the K-3 and that the I-134 pertains to the K-1? The whole idea was to put enough money in my fiancee's bank account (which she opened for exactly that purpose last week) for us to meet the minimum poverty guidelines in the first place. Now I am being told that that is not the best of ideas. I am the alien fiancee. Is it 1/3rd or 1/5th now? I am confused.

[Nik+Heather 121]

Audy_Rob, I thought the I-864 pertained to the K-3 and that the I-134 pertains to the K-1? The whole idea was to put enough money in my fiancee's bank account (which she opened for exactly that purpose last week) for us to meet the minimum poverty guidelines in the first place. Now I am being told that that is not the best of ideas. I am the alien fiancee. Is it 1/3rd or 1/5th now? I am confused.

It is 1/3. For the I-134, which is what is used at the consulate level, it is 1/3. For the I-864 which is used after you are married and for AOS, for SPOUSES, it is 1/3. It will always be 1/3 for K-1 applicants throughout the process.

Maybe you'll go through with your original plan, so this is the last time I'm going to go on about it.... but please please please be aware that any financial transactions are ambiguous, and can be cast in different lights dependent only on the viewpoint of the observer. To you, what you are doing seems perfectly normal. To an immigration officer whose JOB it is to FIND FRAUD, this will be a red flag. As your ability to get the visa depends on the CO's decision, and not your feelings on the subject, I would caution you strongly to avoid this as it can be construed in a very negative light. You can get to the same end by a different and more commonly used means: Self sponsorship. Please research this.

Your fiancee just opened an account, and you're putting in 3x her annual income. Just think about that from a 3rd party perspective for a moment. Surely you can see how fishy it might seem to someone who knows neither one of you?

Furthermore, I do not believe that you can transfer more than $10k into the US without declaring it and paying taxes. Please research this.

[Anh map 2,098]

The terms co-sponsor and joint sponsor are often used interchangeably here on VJ when discussing the K visa petition process.

For the purposes of the K visa most consulates follow the standards set in the I-864 as the K visa recipient will adjust status in the future and the I-864 will be used at that time.

The asset ratio is 3:1 for the K1 and the spouse visa. See page 9 of the I-864 instructions as well as this I-864 FAQ link from the State Dept. website for confirmation.

The I-134 has no provisions for joint sponsorship while the I-864 does. A reading of the instructions tells us that. That being said, both pushbrk and Audy_Rob assert correctly that most consulates will accept a "co-sponsor" when the I-134 is used.

Pushbrk is simply stating that there is no provision for a co-sponsor or joint sponsor in the I-134 instructions.