butmajor-leagueas

It's not just a "piece of paper", and a derived citizen isn't eligible for a Certificate of Naturalization, but rather a Certificate of Citizenship.
 
I get extremely upset when I hear people say this "piece of paper" thing, and they forget the implications and struggles that a derived citizen might have when their parents neglect the submission of N-600 which would finalize USCIS' records on their child's citizenship status once in for all.

Well, said, and to add to that -
 
In the eyes of the government, it is "optional" and a "benefit" because yes, a person does fit what is needed by law to be a citizen. But papers matter for practical purposes even if you fit the parameters of the law via material truth. There is no statute on “user experience.” And as we know, government agencies in the U.S. seem to go out of their way to make everything as ridiculous and painful as possible.
 
I'm working on my N-600 application some 20 years after I derived U.S. Citizenship from my parent. However, it has been extremely difficult to obtain proof of physical custody from that exact year that I derived U.S. Citizenship but I still want to push through before it becomes even more difficult.
 
To add insult to injury, when my parents applied for my first U.S. Passport just shortly after I derived U.S. Citizenship, the DOS interpreted INA 320's "physical custody" as where the child must literally be physically with the parents at the center where the parents would submit their passport application. They didn't ask for any third party evidence of physical custody. But they concluded some 10 years or so ago that their interpretation of INA 320's physical custody requirement was incorrect and they aligned it to what USCIS has had from the beginning. So, even if I FOIA / PA request my first U.S. Passport application, it won't come up with any such third party evidence as the DOS didn't ask for it then. I was devastated to hear that since I was really hoping that a FOIA request of my first U.S. Passport Application would contain evidence that exists in the law.
 
TLDR: Government guidance on whether a CoC is “needed” doesn’t consider potential future complications. There’s no statute guaranteeing an easy “user experience,” and anyone who has dealt with U.S. agencies knows they rarely make things simple.

I still think -- in all instances -- that if there's an opportunity to keep the government off our back now or later, take that opportunity... every time.

If the child does not have a CBRA, a certificate of naturalization, or a certificate of citizenship to prove their status, it is a good idea to file an N-600 ($1385). This could be used to prove citizenship for whatever purpose (e.g. a US passport). Otherwise, the evidence needed for a US passport is more involved.

Thanks, and yeah, the reason why people in my situation are rare is since most other INA 320 citizens (and even INA 301 / 309 citizens) are probably oblivious about it. Even I didn't know about this nuance until around a year ago when I realized that my mom had a CoN, my dad has a CoN, but I have... an ancient permanent resident card?
 
Then, I went into a rabbit hole and was kinda disillusioned after seeing that a country's system and lawmakers have even allowed things to be like this. Especially when an INA 320 citizen would need this to be sorted out the most. We were children when our parents went through the immigration process. We likely never filled out a single immigration form, so throwing us into the deep end for such a form in itself is ridiculous.
 
My two cents to the naysayers on this forum is that even if they don't want to file their child's N-600 application, at least have a complete application ready for them when they turn 18. Have all of the documents needed, especially the ones around legal and physical custody which are extremely difficult to find many years into the future if they haven't been collected previously.
 
And maybe their 18 year old child might be able to even qualify for a fee waiver since... I mean... I don't think a lot of 18 year olds make a lot of money. At least I didn't.

Well, said, and to add to that -
 
In the eyes of the government, it is "optional" and a "benefit" because yes, a person does fit what is needed by law to be a citizen. But papers matter for practical purposes even if you fit the parameters of the law via material truth. There is no statute on “user experience.” And as we know, government agencies in the U.S. seem to go out of their way to make everything as ridiculous and painful as possible.
 
I'm working on my N-600 application some 20 years after I derived U.S. Citizenship from my parent. However, it has been extremely difficult to obtain proof of physical custody from that exact year that I derived U.S. Citizenship but I still want to push through before it becomes even more difficult.
 
To add insult to injury, when my parents applied for my first U.S. Passport just shortly after I derived U.S. Citizenship, the DOS interpreted INA 320's "physical custody" as where the child must literally be physically with the parents at the center where the parents would submit their passport application. They didn't ask for any third party evidence of physical custody. But they concluded some 10 years or so ago that their interpretation of INA 320's physical custody requirement was incorrect and they aligned it to what USCIS has had from the beginning. So, even if I FOIA / PA request my first U.S. Passport application, it won't come up with any such third party evidence as the DOS didn't ask for it then. I was devastated to hear that since I was really hoping that a FOIA request of my first U.S. Passport Application would contain evidence that exists in the law.
 
TLDR: Government guidance on whether a CoC is “needed” doesn’t consider potential future complications. There’s no statute guaranteeing an easy “user experience,” and anyone who has dealt with U.S. agencies knows they rarely make things simple.

I really appreciate your insights there.
We rarely get anybody in your situation. Usually, people wonder about it around the time getting first passports for their children, and many don't understand the value.
 
Keep us posted on your N-600, I hope you get it quick!

I responded but didn't go into much detail, unfortunately. My apologies, but I just don't want to think about it too much since I'm... exhausted.
 
I hope that I can finalize everything for my N-600 Application soon, submit it, and have a painless and speedy adjudication so I can be completely done with USCIS for good...

It's not just a "piece of paper", and a derived citizen isn't eligible for a Certificate of Naturalization, but rather a Certificate of Citizenship.
 
I get extremely upset when I hear people say this "piece of paper" thing, and they forget the implications and struggles that a derived citizen might have when their parents neglect the submission of N-600 which would finalize USCIS' records on their child's citizenship status once in for all.

Well, said, and to add to that -
 
In the eyes of the government, it is "optional" and a "benefit" because yes, a person does fit what is needed by law to be a citizen. But papers matter for practical purposes even if you fit the parameters of the law via material truth. There is no statute on “user experience.” And as we know, government agencies in the U.S. seem to go out of their way to make everything as ridiculous and painful as possible.
 
I'm working on my N-600 application some 20 years after I derived U.S. Citizenship from my parent. However, it has been extremely difficult to obtain proof of physical custody from that exact year that I derived U.S. Citizenship but I still want to push through before it becomes even more difficult.
 
To add insult to injury, when my parents applied for my first U.S. Passport just shortly after I derived U.S. Citizenship, the DOS interpreted INA 320's "physical custody" as where the child must literally be physically with the parents at the center where the parents would submit their passport application. They didn't ask for any third party evidence of physical custody. But they concluded some 10 years or so ago that their interpretation of INA 320's physical custody requirement was incorrect and they aligned it to what USCIS has had from the beginning. So, even if I FOIA / PA request my first U.S. Passport application, it won't come up with any such third party evidence as the DOS didn't ask for it then. I was devastated to hear that since I was really hoping that a FOIA request of my first U.S. Passport Application would contain evidence that exists in the law.
 
TLDR: Government guidance on whether a CoC is “needed” doesn’t consider potential future complications. There’s no statute guaranteeing an easy “user experience,” and anyone who has dealt with U.S. agencies knows they rarely make things simple.

There are known instances of DOS pushing back and requiring more documentation proving citizenship during passport renewal.
 
IMHO losing passport is easier, as you actually use it for travel etc. Certificate, on the other hand, can sit for years in safe / deposit box without being disturbed.
The fact that certificate does not have expiration makes it a lot better document in my opinion. If I somehow could get a drivers license that never expires, for $500 fee, I'd get it without a doubt.
 
I think we'll never come to consensus here. The subject of whether CoC is worth the fee comes up on VJ every 2-3 months. And there's always two camps. I'm always in the camp of "the more proof you have the better". Others may see it as an overkill.
I think there's nothing else I can contribute here.

I suppose with the citizens vs naturalized or derived citizens.  But, a birth certificate is a lot cheaper.  SAVE exists, so if the authorized acceptance agent can verify your identity and take a copy of the original certificate, there's no real reason to provide the original for it to get lost/stolen/damaged.  Those people should be or, perhaps, could be required to be notaries.  
 
No passport reps at mine or the kids' ceremonies.  I think you're right about the post covid slim back.  
 
I had to get an expedited passport as I had travel within 2 weeks of the ceremony.  I had to call DOS and they basically said you have to suck it up and go wherever we have Passport Office appointments.  Luckily, they had one in Houston but I did have to waste 2 days of my life in the Passport Office.  It was nice to have my certificate back in hand because I needed it to update my NEXUS (apparently my passport wasn't good enough?).  
 
The kids we did through the Post Office and the agent stapled my CoN.  I was NOT happy.  They weren't supposed to and that was reaffirmed at the kids' CoC ceremony.  The USCIS agent and judge cringed when I told them that's what had happened.  Technically, the certificate should be replaced because it's supposed to stay pristine, or so I'm told.  That's a nope from me.  

I found it intriguing.  I think another challenge is wording.  "Evidence of" and "proof of" are not the same thing.  So you get a passport - the DOS says it's evidence of, not necessarily proof of citizenship.  Is it a loophole for the government to get outta dodge?  So strange.  
 
In general, it is interesting to me that there's still a lot of "manual steps" one must take after getting citizenship.  It doesn't make sense that, if SAVE exists, that I have to go update my status with the SSA.  My kids also have to be done separately.  Same with my state DL - they use SAVE verification, so why do I have to turn up with these documents to update my status?  Work authorization - same thing.  Proving identity, sure but if the status is in the system....

Interesting read.  What piques my curiosity is if a child derives citizenship through a parent's naturalization, isn't that child also recorded in the SAVE database as a derived citizen?  The posted review seems to indicate that only happens when the child gets an CoC via an N600.  The discussion on fee increases, waivers issued, etc. was very interesting indeed going from $160 in 1998 to $600 in 2010 to $1170 in 2016 to now $1335/1385 depending on online vs paper filing, a massive increase in 27 or so years.

The Federal government has unlimited time and resources to make our lives miserable.  Doesn't it make sense, per the above, to cut off the government before it can get started with this?

Personally I think doing due diligence is important in immigration matters. Why should we as citizens count on our government officials to understand their own rules or even do the right thing? Getting extra documentation is like having an insurance policy.

I do not believe that is correct. If a passport is lost, a new passport must be applied for in person. You present an original and a photocopy of your citizenship evidence. See: https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/passports/how-apply/citizenship-evidence.html
 
I did not make an absolute statement that a CoC is required. Many have already chimed in that a certificate may make the child's bureaucratic life easier years or decades later for different reasons. One should consider N-600 when they have the funds. I never assume my loved ones will have the same tolerance for bureaucracy and forms that I have.
 
The list of secondary evidence is quite involved:
 

Yes all 6 in the US. 

Couldn't agree more, CoC is underrated.

I think it’s up to you. I’ve read about instances where the kids grow and are unable to show proof of their citizenships. The passport alone is okay until the proof is needed especially, when both parents are not there to provide the necessary documentation.

I'd argue the same is true for a naturalization certificate.  Why not just give new citizens a US passport instead of said certificate that essentially sits in a safe?  Alas, that's not how it works.  
 
This is where people run into issues.  They are over 18, don't realize their passport has expired and are out of luck because they have no proof of citizenship.  Simple oversight wreaks havoc.  Or, they decide to go on a beach vacation somewhere in their early 20's and lose their passport abroad.  Now what?  Did they actually order a passport card and keep it in a safe place?  If not...kinda screwed.  Are there ways to potentially prove one had the passport?  Sure, but if you're stuck abroad, do you have that time?  
 
Think of it this way, if your kid lives till they are 80 - $1385/62 = $22.34 per year for reassurance that their status is never in question.  $1.86 a month, less than a cup of coffee and won't ever be subject to fee increases because it's in your child's possession after 18.  The document has no expiration, unlike a passport.  It's cheap insurance, relatively speaking.  

An N-600 will ensure that USCIS has a record that individual has become a US citizen.  A Passport is a DOS document.

Indeed.
 
Getting a wet signature document and scanning it is diff vs if it never had a wet signature in the first place.

Many forms ask for wet signature even if it's then scanned into digital format. It's not a bad idea to get wet signature.

That's what I was thinking too, but I am kinda scared / worried if they'd say in the end that it is not "good enough."
 
Plus, the physical custody evidence I have from the year I derived U.S. Citizenship from my parent is quite limited and extremely unavailable, since it is documentation from around 20y ago when I was a kid...