Shooting of theft suspects may test self-defense law

[mawilson 2,133]

Ok, phew. I would not take comfort in taking someone else's life no matter the circumstances.

How would you know? Have you killed a person before?

[peejay 327]

Just out of interest, why is this kind of call allowed to be broadcast before a trial? Doesn't the US court system feel that it can prejudice a case?

I've been on many jury selection panels. One of the first things attorneys ask perspective jurors is if they are familiar with the case through the media. It doesn't mean they will or won't get selected to serve on the jury whether they have familiarity with the case or not. The defense and the prosecution both get to strike a certain number people off the list for any reason.

Most likely the 911 tape will get played at trial by either the prosecution or defense anyway.

That is...if this guy gets indicted at all. The grand jury might even "no bill" (not indict) in this case. I'm sure the police are consulting with the district attorney to see if any charges will even be filed.

[Peikko 1,575]

Do you think there is no case to answer then?

Seriously, I don't get that. The guy wasn't in any danger in terms of his personal safety, he was repeatedly told not go out and shoot. The police handled the situation really well, trying to keep the guy calm, trying to persuade him this wasn't worth getting into danger for. He didn't listen. Of course, the police know a lot more from what happened on the scene as well as this tape, but it just seems wrong to me when the police where on their way.

...Does it say anywhere why the police didn't get to the scene before the guy started shooting? I know 6 minutes isn't that long of a time though.

[Ban Hammer 14,293]

It's excessive force, IMO, to shoot a 50 yr. old homeless woman who has mental issues because she's threatening you with a screwdriver. My God, a little game of dodge would keep her at bay...there's numerous non-lethal ways to disarm a 50 yr. old mentally ill woman with a screwdriver. I realize that in many respects the world seems more crazy and scary than once was, but people are still people...and common sense should never take a back seat to unrealistic fear of one's life.

steven, a 50 year old woman with a screwdriver poses quite a threat. and unless someone wants to make people with mental issues wear some special armband or something, how would the police know she has issues?

hindsight must be 20/20 for you huh?

[bgreed 0]

The "let the police handle it" mentality is one of the reasons that crime is the way it is today. Most people are afraid to get their hands dirty and so call and wait for the janitors with a badge to come along a clean things up and make it nice and neat. Well life isn't that way. It's just like people who walk by or stand and stare as an old man or woman is assaulted and robbed. No one did anything except call for the police who arrived just in time to do absolutley no good for the victim. Oh and by the way if your being assaulted or involved in a crime of any kind six minutes is a very long time. More than enough time for you to die and the police to arrive to put you in a body bag.

In my opinion there should be no charges brought they were caught in the middle of a crime and should pay the penalty, No need for lawyers to argue a case and plead that "they were deprived in the childhood" or other such #######.

[bgreed 0]

I'm sorry, but I'll never think that way. I never want to kill anyone, but I'm not going to die so some perp trying to attack me has another chance at life. Maybe you've never been in a fight with weapons involved, but trust me, people must comply immediately with the police in such situations or they risk being shot. It's a matter of safety, if you don't think a screwdriver can be a deadly weapon...well, I just don't see why you would think that at all.

It's the fact that it's an older woman who's probably mentally ill holding the screwdriver. If a woman like that couldn't be disarmed and subdued without shooting her, there's something seriously wrong with our current methods of dealing with such situations.

Edit: Is there any training to deal with mentally ill transients? Is there a special protocol in dealing with them that is different from the average citizen?

[bgreed 0]

I'm sorry, but I'll never think that way. I never want to kill anyone, but I'm not going to die so some perp trying to attack me has another chance at life. Maybe you've never been in a fight with weapons involved, but trust me, people must comply immediately with the police in such situations or they risk being shot. It's a matter of safety, if you don't think a screwdriver can be a deadly weapon...well, I just don't see why you would think that at all.

It's the fact that it's an older woman who's probably mentally ill holding the screwdriver. If a woman like that couldn't be disarmed and subdued without shooting her, there's something seriously wrong with our current methods of dealing with such situations.

Edit: Is there any training to deal with mentally ill transients? Is there a special protocol in dealing with them that is different from the average citizen?

It pretty obvious that you are someone young who has never been on the receiving end of an attack with a weapon. You seem to think that 50years old is old and decrepit. Well I'm 51 and I can guarantee you that you would be very surprised at just how fast your azz might hit the ground were we to have a physical struggle. You also might be real surprised at how fast I can cover a short distance.

This is the reason for the 21foot rule that I mentioned earlier. A very average person can cover that 21 feet in under a second and ahalf from a dead start. Now it takes your brain just about one quarter of a second to realize that someting is happening before it puts your body into motion. Guess what by the time you start to move I've put that screwdriver between your ribs. I've proven to non believers many times.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

April 23, 2001 -- As a frail, 54-year-old homeless woman, barely 5 feet tall and 100 pounds, Margaret Laverne Mitchell might not have seemed like a threat to public safety as she pushed her belongings in a shopping cart along the streets of Los Angeles.

But when two city bicycle patrol officers stopped and questioned her in May 1999 about whether the cart was stolen, Mitchell suddenly threatened one of the officers with a 13-inch screwdriver.

The response was rapid and deadly. One officer shot Mitchell in the chest, killing the college-educated woman who had worked for a bank before she started hearing voices and took to the streets. Her family later said she was mentally ill.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art...rticlekey=51068

[Peikko 1,575]

The Police are properly trained to deal with crime, that's their job. The US isn't a place for vigilantism, and law enforcement don't take very kindly to the untrained person stepping in either, for good reason.

It's not a question of where the people who were shot criminals and what's their excuse for being so, it's a case of how much force can a civilian legitimately use when they are not in any personal danger to prevent a criminal from departing the scene.

This guy appears to have gone too far.

Edited November 17, 2007 by Purple_Hibiscus

[bgreed 0]

The reason police don't like the citizen to step in is for the very reason I stated earlier. They are no more than janitors with a bage who have absolutley no ability to stop crime only clean up after the fact. The only person who can stop a crime is the person immediately on the scene. Which means the private citizen. It is not vigilantism as you state. That would be purposely hunting someone down after the fact to punish them. And as to the role of the police that was ruled on nearly fifteen years ago by the courts. There finding was that it was up to the citizen to protect themselves (which could be to also include his community) not the police. They police are only there to protect society as a whole.

Mr. Fancy Pants, just because someone is small of stature does not mean that they are going to have any problem ventilating you with a screwdriver. And mentally ill persons are the most dangerous as they are very unpredictable. Seeming to be compliant one moment and putting 13 inches of steel in your guts the next cause you let your guard down.

[natty bumppo 297]

The Police are properly trained to deal with crime, that's their job. The US isn't a place for vigilantism, and law enforcement don't take very kindly to the untrained person stepping in either, for good reason.

Thanks for telling us Officer PH

[Drew and Tik 0]

April 23, 2001 -- As a frail, 54-year-old homeless woman, barely 5 feet tall and 100 pounds, Margaret Laverne Mitchell might not have seemed like a threat to public safety as she pushed her belongings in a shopping cart along the streets of Los Angeles.

But when two city bicycle patrol officers stopped and questioned her in May 1999 about whether the cart was stolen, Mitchell suddenly threatened one of the officers with a 13-inch screwdriver.

The response was rapid and deadly. One officer shot Mitchell in the chest, killing the college-educated woman who had worked for a bank before she started hearing voices and took to the streets. Her family later said she was mentally ill.

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art...rticlekey=51068

Definitely would have shot her...in a second.

As far as the original post, I don't think there was justification. Even for a police officer, it would have been going a bit far. But it's Texas, the guy might get off and I don't think it will be a huge injustice, I mean two ####### are dead, boohoo.

[natty bumppo 297]

Definitely would have shot her...in a second.

As far as the original post, I don't think there was justification. Even for a police officer, it would have been going a bit far. But it's Texas, the guy might get off and I don't think it will be a huge injustice, I mean two ####### are dead, boohoo.

Let's expand this thought to the rest of the US

[Peikko 1,575]

Which is why in this instance the police repeatedly told the guy to stay out of the way...right? Or, did I miss the bit where they suggested that he should go outside and take them out?

I don't know what kind of society you want, but I am certainly not in favour of every tom, ####### and harry being able to decide what's a crime and what's not which is what you seem to be suggesting.

Yes, there are a small percentage of instances where it's a case of do something now before it's too late but for the most part, the sensible advice is call for the police and keep out the way.

Edited November 17, 2007 by Purple_Hibiscus

[Peikko 1,575]

Might not be a 'huge injustice' if the normal penalty for robbery was death. However, last I knew we didn't live in Saudi Arabia.