Shooting of theft suspects may test self-defense law

[bgreed 0]

In the case of someone threating to rob you with a screw driver this come under the 21' rule if someone is within 21' of you and threatening you with a knife you are justified to shoot them in self defense. Reason, a person with a knife in their hand can cover the distance between you and cause you great bodily harm before you can effectively draw and fire you weapon.

As far as the escape mentality, I have never understood why it is that the law abiding citizen is required to run away from the criminal. They are the law breaker and should pay a penalty for such if that penalty happens to be taking a slug in the guts, well I guess he just chose the wrong line of work.

I have no quandry at all with dealing in such a way with a criminal.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

In the case of someone threating to rob you with a screw driver this come under the 21' rule if someone is within 21' of you and threatening you with a knife you are justified to shoot them in self defense. Reason, a person with a knife in their hand can cover the distance between you and cause you great bodily harm before you can effectively draw and fire you weapon.

As far as the escape mentality, I have never understood why it is that the law abiding citizen is required to run away from the criminal. They are the law breaker and should pay a penalty for such if that penalty happens to be taking a slug in the guts, well I guess he just chose the wrong line of work.

I have no quandry at all with dealing in such a way with a criminal.

A srewdriver is equivalent to a knife? How about a really sharp ballpoint pen? Toothbrush? Pencil?

[Jaseball 0]

I personally have no wish to ever harm or discharge a weapon at another living person. For example in the OP topic I don't think I would want to go confront two burglars coming out of a neighbor's window.

Why? Because if they are actually armed they have a good chance of hurting or killing me. I have no vested interest beyond being a good neighbor. I'm placing myself in danger. If I do shoot them I not only have the guilt, but I'm drawn into the system and have to justify my actions and place myself in a position where I could go to prison or spend enormous amounts of time, resources, and effort into resolving the situation.

However if my family or I am in danger in my own home, business, or walking down the street and someone, deranged or not comes at me with a weapon, regardless of if it is a gun, knife, broken bottle, plastic soda lids fused into a pointed shank, etc., I would not hesitate to empty a .40 into them until the trigger goes click, click, click.

If someone sets my alarm off and continues to kick down my door I'll send a load of 00 into their face and re rack the shotgun in case he has a friend along.

The main difference here is I'm not going to go look for trouble and I'm not going to place myself in harms way, but if some people decide they want to make me or my loved ones a statistic and a victim and I have the means to stop them I would not hesitate one millisecond before ending their time on earth. I'd also assure you that I could easily go to sleep and not consider the criminal higher than a cockroach I stepped on.

Edited November 16, 2007 by Jaseball

[britty 1]

I personally have no wish to ever harm or discharge a weapon at another living person. For example in the OP topic I don't think I would want to go confront two burglars coming out of a neighbor's window.

Why? Because if they are actually armed they have a good chance of hurting or killing me. I have no vested interest beyond being a good neighbor. I'm placing myself in danger. If I do shoot them I not only have the guilt, but I'm drawn into the system and have to justify my actions and place myself in a position where I could go to prison or spend enormous amounts of time, resources, and effort into resolving the situation.

However if my family or I am in danger in my own home, business, or walking down the street and someone, deranged or not comes at me with a weapon, regardless of if it is a gun, knife, broken bottle, plastic soda lids fused into a pointed shank, etc., I would not hesitate to empty a .40 into them until the trigger goes click, click, click.

If someone sets my alarm off and continues to kick down my door I'll send a load of 00 into their face and re rack the shotgun in case he has a friend along.

The main difference here is I'm not going to go look for trouble and I'm not going to place myself in harms way, but if some people decide they want to make me or my loved ones a statistic and a victim and I have the means to stop them I would not hesitate one millisecond before ending their time on earth. I'd also assure you that I could easily go to sleep and not consider the criminal higher than a cockroach I stepped on.

I am totally with Jaseball on this. If a criminal enters my house with intent to harm me or my family, or take my possessions by force, then I will use force to stop them. Luckily the state I live in allows me to defend myself and my home. Criminals need to accept the consequences of their actions. To know they could be killed or seriously harmed whilst commiting crime in my home or on my person, IMO, makes them very dangerous indeed. I don't feel their demise would be a great loss to society.

[Peikko 1,575]

I just heard the 911 call on the news and the officer repeatedly tells the guy to stay inside and that there is no 'property worth killing over'. I am not sure that the news should have this tape if it's going to be presented in court, but if it is...well the jury might find it difficult to acquit.

I found it pretty chilling personally.

[JohnK 0]

IMO, people's actions don't define the value of their life, which is irreducibly sacred.

I disagree wholeheartedly.

[Drew and Tik 0]

If you shoot someone in California, and he runs outside, make sure that you drag him back inside.

Are some of you that trigger happy that you wouldn't flinch over the idea of shooting someone dead for robbing you?

Robbing and burglarizing are different. I would shoot anyone in a second for robbing me with a weapon, since you can easily articulate a fear for your life if someone has a gun, or even a screwdriver to your head.

If someone burglarized my house and I saw him running out with my TV I might chase him and arrest him, but I wouldn't be at all justified in shooting him in the back.

I'm sure you meant burglarize though, people tell me that all the time "My house just got robbed!" You can't rob a house or store, only a person. Like if someone breaks into a bank at night and steals the safe, it's a burglary. If they put a gun to the teller's face and demand the safe, it's a robbery. Law 101

Ah, ok...

So if a transient, for example, approached me with a screwdriver and demanded money from me - if I'm packing, I could shoot him in self defense?

If you have no other option, such as running, and you have reason to believe that you will suffer harm if you don't shoot him, then yes.

I don't know if you remember that a similar incident happened with two bicycle police officers in LA years ago. A homeless woman came at the officers with a screwdriver. They shot her and killed her. The woman was in her 50's. To me that's using excessive force. I suppose one could say there was a potential threat of harm, but seriously, a homeless old woman with mental problems isn't going to be able to do much to a well trained officer.

I fail to see how shooting someone that is coming at you with a weapon is excessive force? What do you want the officers to do? Try to disarm her hand-to-hand and get stabbed? I would shoot her the second she came at me, I don't want to kill anyone, but I also have a family to go home to and I'm not going to risk not ever seeing them again because I get stabbed with a screwdriver. A weapon is a weapon, I would shoot someone coming at me with a baseball bat and not feel bad about it at all, like others have said, criminals need to realize that this is a risk of their profession.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

If you shoot someone in California, and he runs outside, make sure that you drag him back inside.

Are some of you that trigger happy that you wouldn't flinch over the idea of shooting someone dead for robbing you?

Robbing and burglarizing are different. I would shoot anyone in a second for robbing me with a weapon, since you can easily articulate a fear for your life if someone has a gun, or even a screwdriver to your head.

If someone burglarized my house and I saw him running out with my TV I might chase him and arrest him, but I wouldn't be at all justified in shooting him in the back.

I'm sure you meant burglarize though, people tell me that all the time "My house just got robbed!" You can't rob a house or store, only a person. Like if someone breaks into a bank at night and steals the safe, it's a burglary. If they put a gun to the teller's face and demand the safe, it's a robbery. Law 101

Ah, ok...

So if a transient, for example, approached me with a screwdriver and demanded money from me - if I'm packing, I could shoot him in self defense?

If you have no other option, such as running, and you have reason to believe that you will suffer harm if you don't shoot him, then yes.

I don't know if you remember that a similar incident happened with two bicycle police officers in LA years ago. A homeless woman came at the officers with a screwdriver. They shot her and killed her. The woman was in her 50's. To me that's using excessive force. I suppose one could say there was a potential threat of harm, but seriously, a homeless old woman with mental problems isn't going to be able to do much to a well trained officer.

I fail to see how shooting someone that is coming at you with a weapon is excessive force? What do you want the officers to do? Try to disarm her hand-to-hand and get stabbed? I would shoot her the second she came at me, I don't want to kill anyone, but I also have a family to go home to and I'm not going to risk not ever seeing them again because I get stabbed with a screwdriver. A weapon is a weapon, I would shoot someone coming at me with a baseball bat and not feel bad about it at all, like others have said, criminals need to realize that this is a risk of their profession.

It's excessive force, IMO, to shoot a 50 yr. old homeless woman who has mental issues because she's threatening you with a screwdriver. My God, a little game of dodge would keep her at bay...there's numerous non-lethal ways to disarm a 50 yr. old mentally ill woman with a screwdriver. I realize that in many respects the world seems more crazy and scary than once was, but people are still people...and common sense should never take a back seat to unrealistic fear of one's life.

[peejay 327]

I just heard the 911 call on the news and the officer repeatedly tells the guy to stay inside and that there is no 'property worth killing over'. I am not sure that the news should have this tape if it's going to be presented in court, but if it is...well the jury might find it difficult to acquit.

I found it pretty chilling personally.

Here is a link to the recording and more about the incident:

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5306638.html

[Drew and Tik 0]

If you shoot someone in California, and he runs outside, make sure that you drag him back inside.

Are some of you that trigger happy that you wouldn't flinch over the idea of shooting someone dead for robbing you?

Robbing and burglarizing are different. I would shoot anyone in a second for robbing me with a weapon, since you can easily articulate a fear for your life if someone has a gun, or even a screwdriver to your head.

If someone burglarized my house and I saw him running out with my TV I might chase him and arrest him, but I wouldn't be at all justified in shooting him in the back.

I'm sure you meant burglarize though, people tell me that all the time "My house just got robbed!" You can't rob a house or store, only a person. Like if someone breaks into a bank at night and steals the safe, it's a burglary. If they put a gun to the teller's face and demand the safe, it's a robbery. Law 101

Ah, ok...

So if a transient, for example, approached me with a screwdriver and demanded money from me - if I'm packing, I could shoot him in self defense?

If you have no other option, such as running, and you have reason to believe that you will suffer harm if you don't shoot him, then yes.

I don't know if you remember that a similar incident happened with two bicycle police officers in LA years ago. A homeless woman came at the officers with a screwdriver. They shot her and killed her. The woman was in her 50's. To me that's using excessive force. I suppose one could say there was a potential threat of harm, but seriously, a homeless old woman with mental problems isn't going to be able to do much to a well trained officer.

I fail to see how shooting someone that is coming at you with a weapon is excessive force? What do you want the officers to do? Try to disarm her hand-to-hand and get stabbed? I would shoot her the second she came at me, I don't want to kill anyone, but I also have a family to go home to and I'm not going to risk not ever seeing them again because I get stabbed with a screwdriver. A weapon is a weapon, I would shoot someone coming at me with a baseball bat and not feel bad about it at all, like others have said, criminals need to realize that this is a risk of their profession.

It's excessive force, IMO, to shoot a 50 yr. old homeless woman who has mental issues because she's threatening you with a screwdriver. My God, a little game of dodge would keep her at bay...there's numerous non-lethal ways to disarm a 50 yr. old mentally ill woman with a screwdriver. I realize that in many respects the world seems more crazy and scary than once was, but people are still people...and common sense should never take a back seat to unrealistic fear of one's life.

I'm sorry, but I'll never think that way. I never want to kill anyone, but I'm not going to die so some perp trying to attack me has another chance at life. Maybe you've never been in a fight with weapons involved, but trust me, people must comply immediately with the police in such situations or they risk being shot. It's a matter of safety, if you don't think a screwdriver can be a deadly weapon...well, I just don't see why you would think that at all.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I'm sorry, but I'll never think that way. I never want to kill anyone, but I'm not going to die so some perp trying to attack me has another chance at life. Maybe you've never been in a fight with weapons involved, but trust me, people must comply immediately with the police in such situations or they risk being shot. It's a matter of safety, if you don't think a screwdriver can be a deadly weapon...well, I just don't see why you would think that at all.

It's the fact that it's an older woman who's probably mentally ill holding the screwdriver. If a woman like that couldn't be disarmed and subdued without shooting her, there's something seriously wrong with our current methods of dealing with such situations.

Edit: Is there any training to deal with mentally ill transients? Is there a special protocol in dealing with them that is different from the average citizen?

Edited November 16, 2007 by Mister Fancypants

[Peikko 1,575]

Just out of interest, why is this kind of call allowed to be broadcast before a trial? Doesn't the US court system feel that it can prejudice a case?

[Drew and Tik 0]

My father is 50 years old, and my mother isn't too far away, and I think they're physically fit enough to cause harm to someone with a weapon. Mental state has very little to do with ability to harm someone unjustly, and the same thing can be said for age in most cases. 50 really isn't that old.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Just out of interest, why is this kind of call allowed to be broadcast before a trial? Doesn't the US court system feel that it can prejudice a case?

I think the gag laws work differently here.

Remember the Scott Peterson murder trial from 2005? A TV movie showing the defendant's guilt was made and aired before the trial was concluded. Pretty amazing, eh?

Edited November 16, 2007 by Number 6

[Drew and Tik 0]

I'm sorry, but I'll never think that way. I never want to kill anyone, but I'm not going to die so some perp trying to attack me has another chance at life. Maybe you've never been in a fight with weapons involved, but trust me, people must comply immediately with the police in such situations or they risk being shot. It's a matter of safety, if you don't think a screwdriver can be a deadly weapon...well, I just don't see why you would think that at all.

It's the fact that it's an older woman who's probably mentally ill holding the screwdriver. If a woman like that couldn't be disarmed and subdued without shooting her, there's something seriously wrong with our current methods of dealing with such situations.

Edit: Is there any training to deal with mentally ill transients? Is there a special protocol in dealing with them that is different from the average citizen?

Yes, there is. You're supposed to contain them, but if they're not in an apartment or room, like in the situation with the bike police you gave, then this is impossible. Those cops probably didn't go to work that day thinking they wanted to shoot a 50 year old woman and they don't feel good about it...at the same time I can't see them regretting or questioning their decision to shoot someone that was coming at them with a weapon. There's is a big difference between dealing with an emotionally disturbed person and an emotionally disturbed person attacking you with a weapon.