What If Mexico Was “White”?

[pedroh 21]

If Mexicans were white they learn how to speak english better or want the drive to learn english instead of asking you speak english???? lol

huh?? because all white people can speak English??

PWNED

[NavarreMan 10]

If we could also stop the ####### for tat stuff too, that'd be great.

Just backing up what LaL also said there 100%. This is all getting old, we're getting complaints, so we're going to knuckle down and get stricter in these kinds of threads. That also means that if we ask people to tone it down we EXPECT people to tone it down. Instantly, no last digs, no getting the last word in...nuffin.

Now, where did my hat go....

Your nose is sooo cute when your fur is ruffled.

[Mags 112]

If we could also stop the ####### for tat stuff too, that'd be great.

Just backing up what LaL also said there 100%. This is all getting old, we're getting complaints, so we're going to knuckle down and get stricter in these kinds of threads. That also means that if we ask people to tone it down we EXPECT people to tone it down. Instantly, no last digs, no getting the last word in...nuffin.

Now, where did my hat go....

Your nose is sooo cute when your fur is ruffled.

It's the claws you have to watch out for.

[NavarreMan 10]

Nuttin' a little rub above the tail won't cure!

[Fandango 1,440]

I don’t really agree with the article that there’s some sort of reactionary class issue going on – as far as the pundits go - illegal immigration is cleary more politically charged than those other issues the author mentions. But in so far as the comment you made in the thread yesterday - I do think that you were essentially correct. Racism is an inevitable by-product of the illegal immigration debate (to iterate – I’m not speaking specifically about this forum but of the wider world beyond it). Its not the entirety of the argument of course – and as I believe Lisa rightly pointed out, the “r” word (and indeed the rhetoric of a vocal minority) shouldn’t be used as an excuse to squash legitimate arguments or indeed any discussion of the issue at all.

I do think however that people should be a little careful how they frame things as far as that goes - that they don’t allow their anger to subvert their rationality, and in doing so damage their legitimate arguments. Given how heated topics here have become on that issue – I’d say that’s something everyone needs to look out for.

Thank you. I agree that the emotional knee jerk responses don't help a discussion one bit.

But I really am failing to see the 'racism as a by product' towards illegals...when an illegal can be anything. How in the world is that racist if that class of people is comprised of every race under the sun?????? Technically, it can't

True but for the most part the debate tends to focus on the folks from Central America, who (lets be honest) are the biggest single group. That's what I was really getting at - and its no coincidence that the phrase "illegal immigrant" seems to have become synonymous (in certain circles) with an illiterate mushroom picker.

Whether it's synonymous in certain circles with 'illiterate mushroom picker' or not is besides the point...and actually, not a racist comment. We can sit here all day and debate what jobs illegals do, but it's no great stretch to summarize by saying it's usually blue collar, labor intensive work.

And whether or not the biggest group of illegals come from CA or not, when I say 'I am against anti-illegal immigrants'...I mean I am anti illegal immigrants. That doesn't mean only Central American illegals, 'brown' illegals, etc. If you're here illegally from the UK, you need to gtfo. If you're illegal from Sweden, Switzerland, Italy (where my family is from), you need to GTFO. It is not MY fault that a majority of illegals are from XY or Z, and for anyone to turn those beliefs of mine into 'oh well you're a little racist' is bullsh!t and oh so tiring. It's like...how many times can I type the same thing before it's understood? You (general 'you' here) don't have to agree with me, but you certainly should respect my opinion...and you should certainly not change my argument into something it's not.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Gupt, I responded to your claims of racism in the other illegal thread. Which you have not yet responded...so you either didn't read it, or are ignoring it.

I missed a lot of that thread and never bothered catching up. I just got out of a meeting and have to run to another one at 2 so why don't you PM me the URL of the post you'd like me to respond to and I will.

[Empress of Groovy 373]

I don't think that there would be such an uproar if the U.S. were full of illegal Canadians or (Western) Europeans. The fact is, Mexicans are seen as a cultural and linguistic threat, whereas white illegals are not. This has been a topic in the Boston area for quite some time, where thousands of Irish have been working illegally for decades, mainly in pubs and in construction. In fact, the story is often that it's a non-story. You hear a lot about the illegal Brazilians, Dominicans, and, more recently, Mexicans, but not much about the Irish. Much of this clearly has to do with the fact that every other person in New England seems to be of Irish descent, and they like these charming Irish folks. Illegal Irish may not get a break from USCIS, but they sure do from the general public. Is it because of skin color, or because Irish people aren’t fleeing poverty in the same way that many Mexicans are?

There is a lot more to this issue than how one defines racism, but you have to admit that a lot of white Americans would rather see an illegal Irish person given a green card than a brown, Spanish-speaking Mexican. They just probably wouldn't' admit it. I think that's what this article is saying.

One thing that drives me nuts is when Americans whose families have been here for generations say things like, "Well, my ancestors did it legally, when they came to escape [potato famine, pogroms, etc.], why can't these illegals just do it the right way?" as if the process to become a U.S. resident is the same now as it was in 1890. Give me a break. Maybe Great Great Uncle Ephraim was illegal by the laws then, how would you know?

[pedroh 21]

I don't think that there would be such an uproar if the U.S. were full of illegal Canadians or (Western) Europeans. The fact is, Mexicans are seen as a cultural and linguistic threat, whereas white illegals are not. This has been a topic in the Boston area for quite some time, where thousands of Irish have been working illegally for decades, mainly in pubs and in construction. In fact, the story is often that it's a non-story. You hear a lot about the illegal Brazilians, Dominicans, and, more recently, Mexicans, but not much about the Irish. Much of this clearly has to do with the fact that every other person in New England seems to be of Irish descent, and they like these charming Irish folks. Illegal Irish may not get a break from USCIS, but they sure do from the general public. Is it because of skin color, or because Irish people aren’t fleeing poverty in the same way that many Mexicans are?

There is a lot more to this issue than how one defines racism, but you have to admit that a lot of white Americans would rather see an illegal Irish person given a green card than a brown, Spanish-speaking Mexican. They just probably wouldn't' admit it. I think that's what this article is saying.

One thing that drives me nuts is when Americans whose families have been here for generations say things like, "Well, my ancestors did it legally, when they came to escape [potato famine, pogroms, etc.], why can't these illegals just do it the right way?" as if the process to become a U.S. resident is the same now as it was in 1890. Give me a break. Maybe Great Great Uncle Ephraim was illegal by the laws then, how would you know?

agree on that.. it's always 'ugh, they don't try to integrate into America'

[Fandango 1,440]

I don't think that there would be such an uproar if the U.S. were full of illegal Canadians or (Western) Europeans. The fact is, Mexicans are seen as a cultural and linguistic threat, whereas white illegals are not. This has been a topic in the Boston area for quite some time, where thousands of Irish have been working illegally for decades, mainly in pubs and in construction. In fact, the story is often that it's a non-story. You hear a lot about the illegal Brazilians, Dominicans, and, more recently, Mexicans, but not much about the Irish. Much of this clearly has to do with the fact that every other person in New England seems to be of Irish descent, and they like these charming Irish folks. Illegal Irish may not get a break from USCIS, but they sure do from the general public. Is it because of skin color, or because Irish people aren’t fleeing poverty in the same way that many Mexicans are?

There is a lot more to this issue than how one defines racism, but you have to admit that a lot of white Americans would rather see an illegal Irish person given a green card than a brown, Spanish-speaking Mexican. They just probably wouldn't' admit it. I think that's what this article is saying.

One thing that drives me nuts is when Americans whose families have been here for generations say things like, "Well, my ancestors did it legally, when they came to escape [potato famine, pogroms, etc.], why can't these illegals just do it the right way?" as if the process to become a U.S. resident is the same now as it was in 1890. Give me a break. Maybe Great Great Uncle Ephraim was illegal by the laws then, how would you know?

I'm sorry, are you speaking for all of Boston?

[JeanneVictoria 55]

[Fandango 1,440]

Thing is, ANYONE can be a linguistic threat....I don't want my street signs in German, Spanish, French, Italian, etc. I don't want to press 1 for English. That doesn't mean I'm racist against Mexicans or 'brown ppl'.

I am so sick of this argument..it's complete ####### and totally insulting.

We can talk about our ancestors all we want....back in the day, there weren't this amount of people in the US. Do the math! The borders cannot stay open at the same rate it did in our infancy. Simple math and economics dictate that.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I don’t really agree with the article that there’s some sort of reactionary class issue going on – as far as the pundits go - illegal immigration is cleary more politically charged than those other issues the author mentions. But in so far as the comment you made in the thread yesterday - I do think that you were essentially correct. Racism is an inevitable by-product of the illegal immigration debate (to iterate – I’m not speaking specifically about this forum but of the wider world beyond it). Its not the entirety of the argument of course – and as I believe Lisa rightly pointed out, the “r†word (and indeed the rhetoric of a vocal minority) shouldn’t be used as an excuse to squash legitimate arguments or indeed any discussion of the issue at all.

I do think however that people should be a little careful how they frame things as far as that goes - that they don’t allow their anger to subvert their rationality, and in doing so damage their legitimate arguments. Given how heated topics here have become on that issue – I’d say that’s something everyone needs to look out for.

Thank you. I agree that the emotional knee jerk responses don't help a discussion one bit.

But I really am failing to see the 'racism as a by product' towards illegals...when an illegal can be anything. How in the world is that racist if that class of people is comprised of every race under the sun?????? Technically, it can't

True but for the most part the debate tends to focus on the folks from Central America, who (lets be honest) are the biggest single group. That's what I was really getting at - and its no coincidence that the phrase "illegal immigrant" seems to have become synonymous (in certain circles) with an illiterate mushroom picker.

Whether it's synonymous in certain circles with 'illiterate mushroom picker' or not is besides the point...and actually, not a racist comment. We can sit here all day and debate what jobs illegals do, but it's no great stretch to summarize by saying it's usually blue collar, labor intensive work.

And whether or not the biggest group of illegals come from CA or not, when I say 'I am against anti-illegal immigrants'...I mean I am anti illegal immigrants. That doesn't mean only Central American illegals, 'brown' illegals, etc. If you're here illegally from the UK, you need to gtfo. If you're illegal from Sweden, Switzerland, Italy (where my family is from), you need to GTFO. It is not MY fault that a majority of illegals are from XY or Z, and for anyone to turn those beliefs of mine into 'oh well you're a little racist' is bullsh!t and oh so tiring. It's like...how many times can I type the same thing before it's understood? You (general 'you' here) don't have to agree with me, but you certainly should respect my opinion...and you should certainly not change my argument into something it's not.

Sorry perhaps I wan't being clear in what I mean't - but I do agree with you. I do think there are many legitimate arguments about illegal immigration (it is a 'real' issue after all, not one that people have made up).

However - on the other side of it - there is a lowest common denominator to the general argument (i.e. the racsm) arising mainly out of the fact that a specific cultural/ethnic group comprises the biggest group of migrants - those things too are things that I don't think are being imagined; and little is really served by denying that they exist at all, or indeed by using them as an excuse to disrupt all and any dialog. I don't have much of a problem condemning illegal immigration in the same breath as that vocal minority of hate-filled people - that's really what I'm getting at.

I think there is a tendency to turn legitimate arguments into bigotry - on all sides. As said earlier its a vocal minority who do this - but I don't think its much of a coincidence that membership of extreme organisations seems to swell and feed off of divisive issues like this (and indeed terrorism).

Edited November 14, 2007 by Number 6

[no name 1]

I don't think that there would be such an uproar if the U.S. were full of illegal Canadians or (Western) Europeans. The fact is, Mexicans are seen as a cultural and linguistic threat, whereas white illegals are not. This has been a topic in the Boston area for quite some time, where thousands of Irish have been working illegally for decades, mainly in pubs and in construction. In fact, the story is often that it's a non-story. You hear a lot about the illegal Brazilians, Dominicans, and, more recently, Mexicans, but not much about the Irish. Much of this clearly has to do with the fact that every other person in New England seems to be of Irish descent, and they like these charming Irish folks. Illegal Irish may not get a break from USCIS, but they sure do from the general public. Is it because of skin color, or because Irish people aren’t fleeing poverty in the same way that many Mexicans are?

There is a lot more to this issue than how one defines racism, but you have to admit that a lot of white Americans would rather see an illegal Irish person given a green card than a brown, Spanish-speaking Mexican. They just probably wouldn't' admit it. I think that's what this article is saying.

One thing that drives me nuts is when Americans whose families have been here for generations say things like, "Well, my ancestors did it legally, when they came to escape [potato famine, pogroms, etc.], why can't these illegals just do it the right way?" as if the process to become a U.S. resident is the same now as it was in 1890. Give me a break. Maybe Great Great Uncle Ephraim was illegal by the laws then, how would you know?

I'm sorry, are you speaking for all of Boston?

or a lot of white Americans....?

Edited November 14, 2007 by devilette

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I don't think that there would be such an uproar if the U.S. were full of illegal Canadians or (Western) Europeans. The fact is, Mexicans are seen as a cultural and linguistic threat, whereas white illegals are not. This has been a topic in the Boston area for quite some time, where thousands of Irish have been working illegally for decades, mainly in pubs and in construction. In fact, the story is often that it's a non-story. You hear a lot about the illegal Brazilians, Dominicans, and, more recently, Mexicans, but not much about the Irish. Much of this clearly has to do with the fact that every other person in New England seems to be of Irish descent, and they like these charming Irish folks. Illegal Irish may not get a break from USCIS, but they sure do from the general public. Is it because of skin color, or because Irish people aren’t fleeing poverty in the same way that many Mexicans are?

There is a lot more to this issue than how one defines racism, but you have to admit that a lot of white Americans would rather see an illegal Irish person given a green card than a brown, Spanish-speaking Mexican. They just probably wouldn't' admit it. I think that's what this article is saying.

One thing that drives me nuts is when Americans whose families have been here for generations say things like, "Well, my ancestors did it legally, when they came to escape [potato famine, pogroms, etc.], why can't these illegals just do it the right way?" as if the process to become a U.S. resident is the same now as it was in 1890. Give me a break. Maybe Great Great Uncle Ephraim was illegal by the laws then, how would you know?

Excellent post! Very interesting.

[SteveLaura 0]

Boston Journal; City's Irish Newcomers Are Illegal, but Not Alien

Boston has wholeheartedly embraced these new Irish, despite their illegal status, largely because so many people of Irish descent live here and have fond feelings for their ancestral home. Many in the local Irish-American community would like to see Federal law changed to permit more Irish to immigrate legally to the United States. Meantime, the illegal immigrants are viewed charitably, as hard-working newcomers who need a helping hand...

Beginning in the mid-1980's, a new wave of illegal immigration began, composed largely of Irish who entered this country on tourist visas and remained. Many have come because of hard times in Ireland, where unemployment is 18 percent. Estimates vary, but there may be as many as 30,000 illegal Irish in Boston and 100,000 in New York...

Under Mayor Flynn, Boston has strengthened its Irish ties. He has an unpaid adviser on Irish-American affairs, has created an office of immigrant rights, and encourages business ventures in Ireland. Mr. Flynn and other Massachusetts elected officials have worked to revise immigration laws to permit more Irish and other groups to remain legally in the United States.

''We don't see these people as a problem,'' said Francis J. Costello, the Irish-American affairs adviser. He said the area has a labor shortage and the immigrants were not taking jobs Americans might otherwise fill.