What Part of Illegal Don't You Understand?

[NavarreMan 10]

Thats such a crock Addie. Hurting our country..pfft...

Yeah, maybe because of cheap illegal labor, a contruction worker's wages are down by 2 bucks an hour. But alot of good that extra money will do when the costs of goods and services double or triple because of soaring demand due to unfilled positions traditionally filled by illegals.

I love the 'I don't want to pay fair mkt value cos I want to benefit off what is essentially slave labor' argument.

I think what would be fair is for the illegal immigrant to:

1. Pay all fees a lawful petitioner would be subject to.

2. Go through the same background and medical checks a lawful petitioner would be subject to.

3. Account for all earnings since entering the USA and pay all taxes and fines warranted.4. Failure of any of these criteria would result in immediate and permanent expulsion from the USA and any accumulated wealth would be subject to all lawful Statutes and US Codes, including but not limited to: Forfeiture, fines and/or imprisonment.

Yeah good luck with that

So you understand my point: If they cannot do it then out they go.

Ya'll want to keep this interesting, see who rebuilds SoCal. I can pretty much guarantee the work will go to the lowest bidders. Guess who???

The way it worked after Katrina is FEMA paid some contractor over $800.00 a square to reroof a house. That contractor would sub the work for half that amount and then it would be subbed again and again until finally Miguel & crew would be doing the job for $15.00 a square. The government turned a blind eye to it until the media got it. The contractors all made a buttload of cash and in the end what was left went to support illegal immigration. You bet it is a huge problem. And all of us are here bitching about it rather than writing our elected officials and media to try and do something about it. Self included.

[SMOKE 1,426]

there is middle ground. DO IT THE RIGHT WAY! get a visa! and don't expect the US taxpayers to support the worlds poor.

That's hilarious. The US government and by extension taxpayer keeps plenty of the world in poverty, not the other way around.

Lots of people left my county looking for a better life, and went to America. They worked hard and were welcomed becuase the country needed the labour. These days I can't just get on a boat and show up. So I don't. But I know that if I lived in the poverty that my ancestors grew up in, I would be on a boat to somewhere better, the second I could. It would just be my bad luck that I decide to do so after the land grab is over, and the people who got there first don't want anyone else to come and ruin the party.

And by the way, I wouldn't be ruining the party. Most illegal immigrants pay taxes, but cannot recieve the benefits that they bring becasue of their lack of status.

Well said! Wow!

hmm looks like a good recruit for ya steven. takes a responce to a question "there must be a middle ground" between 1-unlawfully entering a country, illegal employment, paying little (remember if you are illegal you don't have a ss#)to no taxes, expecting social services, taking jobs away from americans & legal immigrants & 2- GTFO!! & goes on a ramble about how the world is poorer because of the US. gives a brief history on how almost everyone got hear..legal & lawful immigration. then paints anyone who has aquired any material holdings & wants to protect what have & are intitled to as being, greedy & selfish. now lets follow up w/ a little untruth & state illegal immigrant pay taxes & don't recieve any benefits(illegal immigrants don't pay taxes unless the steal someones id)..sales tax don't count!.......OMG!!!!....its like listening to you all day in 1 post.

give'em some more well saids &wows!!

you have found another extreme left "victim" sympathizer. congrats!

[Fandango 1,439]

Thats such a crock Addie. Hurting our country..pfft...

Yeah, maybe because of cheap illegal labor, a contruction worker's wages are down by 2 bucks an hour. But alot of good that extra money will do when the costs of goods and services double or triple because of soaring demand due to unfilled positions traditionally filled by illegals.

I love the 'I don't want to pay fair mkt value cos I want to benefit off what is essentially slave labor' argument.

I think what would be fair is for the illegal immigrant to:

1. Pay all fees a lawful petitioner would be subject to.

2. Go through the same background and medical checks a lawful petitioner would be subject to.

3. Account for all earnings since entering the USA and pay all taxes and fines warranted.4. Failure of any of these criteria would result in immediate and permanent expulsion from the USA and any accumulated wealth would be subject to all lawful Statutes and US Codes, including but not limited to: Forfeiture, fines and/or imprisonment.

Yeah good luck with that

So you understand my point: If they cannot do it then out they go.

Ya'll want to keep this interesting, see who rebuilds SoCal. I can pretty much guarantee the work will go to the lowest bidders. Guess who???

The way it worked after Katrina is FEMA paid some contractor over $800.00 a square to reroof a house. That contractor would sub the work for half that amount and then it would be subbed again and again until finally Miguel & crew would be doing the job for $15.00 a square. The government turned a blind eye to it until the media got it. The contractors all made a buttload of cash and in the end what was left went to support illegal immigration. You bet it is a huge problem. And all of us are here bitching about it rather than writing our elected officials and media to try and do something about it. Self included.

But that's the thing...how does the gov't disprove any 'documented income' that the illegal provides?

As to Poiteen's 'the US taxpayers keep the world in poverty'...all *I* can say is 'wow'

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

Most illegal immigrants pay taxes, but cannot recieve the benefits that they bring becasue of their lack of status.

That dog don't hunt. The illegal crowd causes a net costs this country to the tune of around $10 billion p.a.

Exactly & They DON't pay taxes because they hav eno social Security number, they drain the tax system and they earn money working illegally anything earned illegally should be forfieted.

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

I know I've come a bit late to this thread, but couldn't help but wonder if any of you have ever met an illegal imigrant and had a conversation with them and gotten to know why they are here and what their life is like.

I have, and I have some real sympathy for them. There are plenty of them here in Miami. Even if they imigrated for the wrong reasons, many of them feel they can't go back for whatever reason and they would like to be legal in a place they call home. I actually know a few who have a SSN and pay their taxes, but don't have valid paperwork anymore. Many places that hire illegals only require that they have a SSN, they don't check the papers... So, they do pay into the system mostly with hope that if they do, the laws will eventually change and if they can prove they haven't been delinquent they will be allowed to change their status. I say a large part of the fault is letting people work without papers with a SSN on file and not tracking them down by the use of that SSN... Most illegals I know actually pay taxes on their paychecks, it's just that the employers don't check for work papers

It's a large problem, and it will be interesting to see what happens. I'm just glad I'm trying to get my habbibi (fiance) here legally

My wife and I also have met many immigrants without permission and yes they all work hard and are here to provide for their families. They are not against paying taxes and the ones that can pay do. They understand they broke a law but what is the alternative for them back home? They would be extremely poor and their children would have no opportunities. I know many American feel this is no excuse and we should deport them all but we don't agree. There has to be some middle ground.

The middle groujnd is they rigjht the wrong they did, by going back to thier country of origin and ebntering through legal means, they should NOT be allowed to stay where is the equality or justice that? They ARE TAKING OPPORTUNITIES AWAY FROM AMERICAN CHILDREN.

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

Interesting that the "illegal haters" here have yet to take on the forum members who themselves are "illegal," that is, they have overstayed and are therefore here illegally and breaking the law, but are adjusting status by virtue of marriage to an American citizen. Why haven't you lashed out at their partners who post here looking for advice? I don't advocate this approach, but I don't understand why you unleash your fury only on hypothetical groups of people rather than actual individuals.

Even though I touched on this earlier in this thread, I will write it specifically to you NOW.

As long as you have the NOA for the AOS paperwork, the status is not considered illegal, despite the out of status on the visa...

My wife was taking a free English class (the school is funded in part with state funds), last year one of the issuse Arizona voted on was should those who cannot prove legal status in the US be allowed to partake in state funded programs...Arizona said NO!

GOOD ON ARIZONA too bad more states don't follow this example.

[Addie_Goodvibes 0]

What then would you suggest the punishment be for a person whose crime was to enter a country illegally? Again this is like shoplifting, steal a candy bar but we're not going to take it away, instead we let you keep it and then give you a job in the store you stole it from. Please help me see the light here.

Well, I've laid out some ideas earlier, but I can go over them again for clarity. I would start afresh. Strengthen borders. Go after firms hiring illegal workers. Introduce a guest worker program. If you are caught after that, deportation. Why is it OK then? Because there are other options available, and the roots have not been laid down. For those already here, a fine. Is everyone gonna be covered in that scenario? Absolutely not. Like I said earlier, I don't have all the answers, more's the pity. But is it better than what exists currently? I'd say so.

Out of curiosity, what would you do?

I think what would be fair is for the illegal immigrant to:

1. Pay all fees a lawful petitioner would be subject to.

2. Go through the same background and medical checks a lawful petitioner would be subject to.

3. Account for all earnings since entering the USA and pay all taxes and fines warranted.

4. Failure of any of these criteria would result in immediate and permanent expulsion from the USA and any accumulated wealth would be subject to all lawful Statutes and US Codes, including but not limited to: Forfeiture, fines and/or imprisonment.

That is what I would expect of the illegal immigrant. Now for the employers:

1. Account for the proper identification of all employees to insure compliance with federal immigration & DHS laws.

2. Insure all tax laws are being complied with.

3. Insure all wage and workers comp laws are being complied with.

4. Insure all minimum wage and child labor laws are being complied with.

5. Severe penalties for those who fail to meet all criteria.

The federal Government:

1. Put into effect enforceable laws and security measures to insure compliance with all immigration issues.

2. Enforce said laws.

4. Give border states and POE states authority to act as required to uphold federal immigration laws.

5. All politicians quit giving the issue lip service and do something about it!

Tall order but if we concentrate on our own country and less on someone else's we might just be able to get somewhere.

I agree with you here with an addition to a few thiungs. Illegals should be cut off from ALL social services / benefits Until all Fines are paid back taxes, and penalities and they have paid all fees for immigration process. Then & ONLY then should they be allowed access to services. They should also not be permitted to work unitl they are legally allowed BY LAW to do so. Wait if all this were to tak eplace they woul dbe Forced to SELF deport. Excellent idea!

[AmericanGentleman 0]

They DON't pay taxes because they hav eno social Security number, they drain the tax system and they earn money working illegally anything earned illegally should be forfieted.

More misinformation. You do not need a SS# to pay taxes. Ther IRS has issued almost 7 million Tax ID Numbers that allow workers to pay taxes. SEVEN MILLION. Now when you take the 20 million illegals and subtract out the children and stay home moms, that is almost approaching the same percent of legal taxpayers per household.

As for the rest of you would are pulling numbers out of the air about how much the illegals are costing this country, spare us that misinformation as well. There are no conclusive studies that prove either way that the country and its economy are damage or benefit from the illegal workers. In order to even attempt such a comprehesive study, you would have to determine how many are here and they have no clue...13 million...20 million....no one knows.

Sure, there are areas hit hard, like the emergy rooms. But those are offset that benefits in other areas such as labor and growth. It is just plain ignorance to claim EITHER WAY that the overall effect is positive or negative in regards to the economy.

[AmericanGentleman 0]

Illegals should be cut off from ALL social services / benefits Until all Fines are paid back taxes, and penalities and they have paid all fees for immigration process. Then & ONLY then should they be allowed access to services.

I disagree. Our social nets are not designed to validate immigration status. Nor should they be. That is like asking someone in a soup line to prove they have no money. It is the fault of the Federal Government that there are illegals applying for social services, the responsibility of an overburdened system lies squarely on the federal government. I for one refuse to let another human being suffer if I can help them, and the social services agree with me.

[natty bumppo 289]

More misinformation. You do not need a SS# to pay taxes. Ther IRS has issued almost 7 million Tax ID Numbers that allow workers to pay taxes. SEVEN MILLION. Now when you take the 20 million illegals and subtract out the children and stay home moms, that is almost approaching the same percent of legal taxpayers per household.

As you said ....

You are making a huge assumption with illegals obtaining an ITIN and these 7 million are all illegals working in the US... good greif.

Lets' see ... how many people on VJ have a foreign spouse (not yet in the US) and the spouse has an ITIN. Quite a few I bet ... now multiply that by the rest of the population. Now what about foreign business people who wish to conduct legitimate business with the US ... open bank accounts ... etc

Dude ... your argument don't hunt.

Edited October 30, 2007 by Natty Bumppo

[Ban Hammer 12,903]

They DON't pay taxes because they hav eno social Security number, they drain the tax system and they earn money working illegally anything earned illegally should be forfieted.

More misinformation. You do not need a SS# to pay taxes. Ther IRS has issued almost 7 million Tax ID Numbers that allow workers to pay taxes. SEVEN MILLION. Now when you take the 20 million illegals and subtract out the children and stay home moms, that is almost approaching the same percent of legal taxpayers per household.

As for the rest of you would are pulling numbers out of the air about how much the illegals are costing this country, spare us that misinformation as well. There are no conclusive studies that prove either way that the country and its economy are damage or benefit from the illegal workers. In order to even attempt such a comprehesive study, you would have to determine how many are here and they have no clue...13 million...20 million....no one knows.

Sure, there are areas hit hard, like the emergy rooms. But those are offset that benefits in other areas such as labor and growth. It is just plain ignorance to claim EITHER WAY that the overall effect is positive or negative in regards to the economy.

as natty covered the itins, you can also read thru this to find the cost:

FAIR research suggests that "between 40 and 50 percent of wage-loss among low-skilled Americans is due to the immigration of low-skilled workers. Some native workers lose not just wages but their jobs through immigrant competition. An estimated 1,880,000 American workers are displaced from their jobs every year by immigration; the cost for providing welfare and assistance to these Americans is over $15 billion a year." The National Research Council, part of the National Academy of Sciences, found in 1997 that the average immigrant without a high school education imposes a net fiscal burden on public coffers of $89,000 during the course of his or her lifetime. The average immigrant with only a high school education creates a lifetime fiscal burden of $31,000.8

link

some more interesting links:

link

link

link

and lastly, my favorite - no cost indeed eh?

link

[AmericanGentleman 0]

More misinformation. You do not need a SS# to pay taxes. Ther IRS has issued almost 7 million Tax ID Numbers that allow workers to pay taxes. SEVEN MILLION. Now when you take the 20 million illegals and subtract out the children and stay home moms, that is almost approaching the same percent of legal taxpayers per household.

As you said ....

You are making a huge assumption with illegals obtaining an ITIN and these 7 million are all illegals working in the US... good greif.

Lets' see ... how many people on VJ have a foreign spouse (not yet in the US) and the spouse has an ITIN. Quite a few I bet ... now multiply that by the rest of the population. Now what about foreign business people who wish to conduct legitimate business with the US ... open bank accounts ... etc

Dude ... your argument don't hunt.

Your right, I took that too far into assumptions, but the intial point I was tryign to make was that you do not need a SS# to pay taxes as Addie asserted.

That being said, you do not have any conclusive proof that the majority of illegals are NOT payign taxes either.

[AmericanGentleman 0]

FAIR research suggests that "between 40 and 50 percent of wage-loss among low-skilled Americans is due to the immigration of low-skilled workers.

Ah...research "suggests".... Soon as we have some conclusive studies we should discuss it further.

Some native workers lose not just wages but their jobs through immigrant competition. An estimated 1,880,000 American workers are displaced from their jobs every year by immigration; the cost for providing welfare and assistance to these Americans is over $15 billion a year."

Hardly a drop in the bucket compared to general outsourcing wouldnt you say? Blaming illegals for the loss of american jobs, while a valid reason, is a poor scape goat for a greater problem. Maybe had this country not outsourced its manufacturing based, again the fault of federal government, then those Americans would have somethignother than welfare to fall back on.

The National Research Council, part of the National Academy of Sciences, found in 1997 that the average immigrant without a high school education imposes a net fiscal burden on public coffers of $89,000 during the course of his or her lifetime. The average immigrant with only a high school education creates a lifetime fiscal burden of $31,000.8

And what kind of burden does a US citizen without a highschool education create? This is exactly the type of intellectually dishonest arguement I am talking about, taking existing problems and pasting an illegal alien sticker on it. Illegals are being used a smoke screen to take focus off the true problems.

[Ban Hammer 12,903]

FAIR research suggests that "between 40 and 50 percent of wage-loss among low-skilled Americans is due to the immigration of low-skilled workers.

Ah...research "suggests".... Soon as we have some conclusive studies we should discuss it further.

Some native workers lose not just wages but their jobs through immigrant competition. An estimated 1,880,000 American workers are displaced from their jobs every year by immigration; the cost for providing welfare and assistance to these Americans is over $15 billion a year."

Hardly a drop in the bucket compared to general outsourcing wouldnt you say? Blaming illegals for the loss of american jobs, while a valid reason, is a poor scape goat for a greater problem. Maybe had this country not outsourced its manufacturing based, again the fault of federal government, then those Americans would have somethignother than welfare to fall back on.

The National Research Council, part of the National Academy of Sciences, found in 1997 that the average immigrant without a high school education imposes a net fiscal burden on public coffers of $89,000 during the course of his or her lifetime. The average immigrant with only a high school education creates a lifetime fiscal burden of $31,000.8

And what kind of burden does a US citizen without a highschool education create? This is exactly the type of intellectually dishonest arguement I am talking about, taking existing problems and pasting an illegal alien sticker on it. Illegals are being used a smoke screen to take focus off the true problems.

ah, first tactic - discount the source of the info. that's a well known ploy around here.

next up we see something to the effect of it is not that big a deal, only 1.8 million people! outsourcing is a greater evil and therefore these 1.8 million are not important.

we are not talking about usc high school grads, are we? while you may dislike what the link contains, that's your problem and not mine.

[SMOKE 1,426]

FAIR research suggests that "between 40 and 50 percent of wage-loss among low-skilled Americans is due to the immigration of low-skilled workers.

Ah...research "suggests".... Soon as we have some conclusive studies we should discuss it further.

Some native workers lose not just wages but their jobs through immigrant competition. An estimated 1,880,000 American workers are displaced from their jobs every year by immigration; the cost for providing welfare and assistance to these Americans is over $15 billion a year."

Hardly a drop in the bucket compared to general outsourcing wouldnt you say? Blaming illegals for the loss of american jobs, while a valid reason, is a poor scape goat for a greater problem. Maybe had this country not outsourced its manufacturing based, again the fault of federal government, then those Americans would have somethignother than welfare to fall back on.

The National Research Council, part of the National Academy of Sciences, found in 1997 that the average immigrant without a high school education imposes a net fiscal burden on public coffers of $89,000 during the course of his or her lifetime. The average immigrant with only a high school education creates a lifetime fiscal burden of $31,000.8

And what kind of burden does a US citizen without a highschool education create? This is exactly the type of intellectually dishonest arguement I am talking about, taking existing problems and pasting an illegal alien sticker on it. Illegals are being used a smoke screen to take focus off the true problems.

dude, put the pom poms away. you can sit here and promote & rationalize breaking the laws of this nation all day (1 of the best things about this country is free speech). but, please don't forget these low skilled Americans w/o high school educations that you are so ready to sweep under the rug are Americans! & deserve the jobs the illegals are taking from them..no they should not have to compete w/ illegals to feed & support their families. and the outsourcing you claim is the reason for the wage drop of blue collar/ construction jobs is complete horsesh!t!! outsourceing has zero, nadda, zip, nothing to do w/ the wages & job loss of the construction & service industies inside the US.