Americans should justify further intrusion into Canadians' lives

[trailmix 77]

Vancouver Sun

Published: Wednesday, October 17, 2007

The United States is rightly and understandably concerned about aviation terrorism, but one has to wonder what the U.S. Transportation Security Administration hopes to accomplish with one controversial aspect of its Secure Flight Program.

The measure, which has yet to be implemented, would require Canadian airlines to send passenger manifests to the administration for flights that travel across American airspace even if the flights will not be landing in the U.S. The information would have to be sent 72 hours prior to departure and then updated to include any last-minute travellers.

In particular, the airlines would have to transmit every passenger's full name, date of birth, gender and "traveller number," which identifies people who are deemed by the U.S. not to pose a threat.

The U.S. also plans to request, but not require, further information, including passengers' itineraries, departure and arrival times and the like.

Now it's important to note that these requirements would not apply to every flight that crosses into U.S. airspace. Flights from one Canadian destination to another are exempt from the program, even though such flights often spend some time in American airspace. Since those flights account for about 75 per cent of all Canadian flights that cross into U.S. airspace, the program would only affect the remaining 25 per cent -- flights that spend a considerable amount of time over the U.S., such as those going from Canada to Mexico or the Caribbean.

Nevertheless, the proposal has many Canadians up in arms, including travel agents who fear that such requirements will affect their business, and the Air Transport Association of Canada (ATAC), which represents Canadian airlines.

Although American authorities have said all information about Canadian flights will be destroyed within 10 days after the flight, some people have expressed concern that the information could be shared with other agencies before being destroyed. Others have said suggested Canadians who visit Cuba could have that fact held against them if they try to enter the U.S.

These concerns might or might not be overblown, but the more fundamental question is why the U.S. thinks it's necessary to pursue this course of action. After all, after extensive consultation with the U.S., Canada developed its own no-fly list, which went into effect in June.

This means that the U.S. either doesn't trust Canada to monitor the list effectively, or -- and this is the suggestion of ATAC -- it is involved in a data-fishing exercise to, among other things, find Americans who fly to Cuba through Canadian centres.

The latter possibility is certainly at odds with the expressed purpose of ensuring safe flights, and the former seems unnecessary since the U.S. has not expressed concern about the ability of Canada to monitor its no-fly list.

Consequently, Canada should, at the very least, make its objections known to the U.S. and press the Americans to provide reasons why this measure is necessary. By all means, Ottawa should cooperate with Washington. But Canadians already worked with them on the development of the no-fly list, and we need to know why the U.S. now feels that effort was not enough.

Article

Wilkins says flight list handover a safety issue

[Emancipation 2]

These concerns might or might not be overblown, but the more fundamental question is why the U.S. thinks it's necessary to pursue this course of action. After all, after extensive consultation with the U.S., Canada developed its own no-fly list, which went into effect in June..

This means that the U.S. either doesn't trust Canada to monitor the list effectively, or -- and this is the suggestion of ATAC -- it is involved in a data-fishing exercise to, among other things, find Americans who fly to Cuba through Canadian centres.

I read this earlier this week and it made my blood boil.. this is the point of the matter exactly.. and I for one think that Canada's response should be this..

Okay Mr. USA.. no problems, we'll hand over those flight lists on one condition.. EVERY US plane that uses CDN airspace are required to do the same.. ####### for tat my US friend..

USA Sheesh...

[Ban Hammer 14,647]

maybe the usa is concerned about planes from canada making an emergency landing in the usa?

[DeadPoolX 9]

Now maybe I'm a little more sympathetic towards Canada (since that's where my fiancee is from), but I don't see why Air Canada or smaller airlines (like WestJet) would need to do this so long as they're not touching down on American soil. These aren't warplanes and they aren't loaded with bombs, so it's not like a 747 could suddenly make a sharp turn and perform a bombing run.

Granted, the planes that struck the World Trade Center towers during 9/11 weren't warplanes either and those did considerable damage. However, I think CATSA probably does their job just as well as TSA -- if not better, considering the mass confusion I've often seen surrounding that government organization.

I know some in the U.S. government have said that CATSA is "lax on security" when compared to TSA, but you might have to take some details into consideration. Canada has a lot fewer people in it than the U.S. does and therefore, many less airports that serve flights to the United States. There are fewer places for a terrorist to go through and with security screening less people, they probably aren't as worn down.

One benefit to there being fewer airports with flights to the U.S. is that U.S. Customs & Immigration is stationed inside Canadian airports, so everyone goes through them before getting on a plane to the United States. So effectively, it's not even Canada's say whether or not a terrorist finds his way onto the plane (if it's going to the U.S.), since the U.S. government has the final word here.

Honestly, I think something like this is stupid. Of course, I think requiring passports for Americans/Canadians/Mexicans to enter and leave each other's countries is also stupid. But who listens to me?

[Lansbury 19]

Unless you can guarantee that no Canadian airlines, even in an emergency, will land in the USA and that only Canadian citizens will be on board fine. If not why should Canadian airlines not be treat the same way as all other airlines operating through and into USA airspace.

By the way about a year before I retired the UK started the implementation of the same requirements. Passenger manifests had to be submitted in advance and these were checked against the Home Office Warning Index and the Police National Computer. They were gradually adding more airlines and departure points to the list with a view to every flight eventually being covered.

There is no such thing as free movement across borders blame those that kill people to further their political aims for that. You would not expect to drive through the US without checks and airspace is just roads in the air.

[Jasman0717 9]

TSA spreading their love

[trailmix 77]

Unless you can guarantee that no Canadian airlines, even in an emergency, will land in the USA and that only Canadian citizens will be on board fine. If not why should Canadian airlines not be treat the same way as all other airlines operating through and into USA airspace.

By the way about a year before I retired the UK started the implementation of the same requirements. Passenger manifests had to be submitted in advance and these were checked against the Home Office Warning Index and the Police National Computer. They were gradually adding more airlines and departure points to the list with a view to every flight eventually being covered.

There is no such thing as free movement across borders blame those that kill people to further their political aims for that. You would not expect to drive through the US without checks and airspace is just roads in the air.

I see what you are saying (I truly do), but I don't think this can really be compared to driving in to the U.S. without checks - I mean generally Canadians aren't checked much anyway. The difference, I believe, is that we are actually neighbours, we share a border, much of which is just wide open spaces.

There are things in place, like the no-fly list so I just don't get it.

As an aside, I think that Canada has been given a bad rap as far as border crossings go, the media never mentions that anyone who did cross in the U.S. from Canada with an evil motive crossed through U.S. Customs.

[Lansbury 19]

There are things in place, like the no-fly list so I just don't get it.

Experience working at Heathrow in a very similar role to part of the DHS if the aircraft is only over flying the US and there is someone on board who is on a no fly list they will refuse to accept the flight and turn it back. Hence why they want the manifests so far in advance. It avoids that person being allowed to board the flight, and everyone else being unconvinced when it is made to turn around. Technically it isn't the flight manifest just a copy of the reservation list.

Their thoughts are don't even given them the slightest opportunity to hijack and crash another flight. They are not particularly interest in Canadians as a nation just flights originating from Canada.

[Emancipation 2]

There are things in place, like the no-fly list so I just don't get it.

Experience working at Heathrow in a very similar role to part of the DHS if the aircraft is only over flying the US and there is someone on board who is on a no fly list they will refuse to accept the flight and turn it back. Hence why they want the manifests so far in advance. It avoids that person being allowed to board the flight, and everyone else being unconvinced when it is made to turn around. Technically it isn't the flight manifest just a copy of the reservation list.

Their thoughts are don't even given them the slightest opportunity to hijack and crash another flight. They are not particularly interest in Canadians as a nation just flights originating from Canada.

I have no problems with the US getting access to those lists so long as Canada gains access to the US travelers as well. ####### for tat I'd say, and Canada has been just doing whatever the US dictates far too long. If the "no fly" list is not good enough for the US of A then it darn well shouldn't be good enough for Canada.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

It's our airspace.

[jundp 191]

These concerns might or might not be overblown, but the more fundamental question is why the U.S. thinks it's necessary to pursue this course of action. After all, after extensive consultation with the U.S., Canada developed its own no-fly list, which went into effect in June..

This means that the U.S. either doesn't trust Canada to monitor the list effectively, or -- and this is the suggestion of ATAC -- it is involved in a data-fishing exercise to, among other things, find Americans who fly to Cuba through Canadian centres.

I read this earlier this week and it made my blood boil.. this is the point of the matter exactly.. and I for one think that Canada's response should be this..

Okay Mr. USA.. no problems, we'll hand over those flight lists on one condition.. EVERY US plane that uses CDN airspace are required to do the same.. ####### for tat my US friend..

USA Sheesh...

I have to say I agree with your statement. If we are going to require it, then we should expect Canada to require the same of us.

As an aside, I think that Canada has been given a bad rap as far as border crossings go, the media never mentions that anyone who did cross in the U.S. from Canada with an evil motive crossed through U.S. Customs.

I think I am misunderstanding you. I recall that before 9/11 one of the suspected terrorist's comrades (ok, I feel like Ferris Bueller there) was stopped at the border in Port Angeles, coming into the US from Victoria on a ferry. I looked for the story, but I don't remember the guy's name, but I think he flew from the Middle East into Canada and then took the ferry from Victoria into Port Angeles. So I suppose that means that someone did try to cross into the US from Canada with evil motives...

Then again, it's late and who knows if I read your post right

[trailmix 77]

These concerns might or might not be overblown, but the more fundamental question is why the U.S. thinks it's necessary to pursue this course of action. After all, after extensive consultation with the U.S., Canada developed its own no-fly list, which went into effect in June..

This means that the U.S. either doesn't trust Canada to monitor the list effectively, or -- and this is the suggestion of ATAC -- it is involved in a data-fishing exercise to, among other things, find Americans who fly to Cuba through Canadian centres.

I read this earlier this week and it made my blood boil.. this is the point of the matter exactly.. and I for one think that Canada's response should be this..

Okay Mr. USA.. no problems, we'll hand over those flight lists on one condition.. EVERY US plane that uses CDN airspace are required to do the same.. ####### for tat my US friend..

USA Sheesh...

I have to say I agree with your statement. If we are going to require it, then we should expect Canada to require the same of us.

As an aside, I think that Canada has been given a bad rap as far as border crossings go, the media never mentions that anyone who did cross in the U.S. from Canada with an evil motive crossed through U.S. Customs.

I think I am misunderstanding you. I recall that before 9/11 one of the suspected terrorist's comrades (ok, I feel like Ferris Bueller there) was stopped at the border in Port Angeles, coming into the US from Victoria on a ferry. I looked for the story, but I don't remember the guy's name, but I think he flew from the Middle East into Canada and then took the ferry from Victoria into Port Angeles. So I suppose that means that someone did try to cross into the US from Canada with evil motives...

Then again, it's late and who knows if I read your post right

No, you are right, that was the infamous 'millenium bomber'. But I just find it somewhat misleading - the media always seems to imply that people that cross the border from Canada are stopped by Canadian officials when in fact it is U.S. customs doing the inspection.

And - I agree with Emacipation, it should be reciprocal.

[Reba 2]

The "millenium bomber" had nothing to do with the 9/11 terrorists.

If there is a no fly list in both Canada and the US, then whoever is on the list isn't going to be flying. Not over Canadian airspace, and not over US airspace. So why do they need Canada's flight manifests? If someone on the no fly lis is on the plane, chances are they're using a psudonym and no one would know it anyhow

[Emancipation 2]

It's our airspace.

That's fine, but just so long as when you are traveling over CDN airspace you don't mind your information being shared with the CDN gov, and your name being kept in CDN security records for 10 days!

[Emancipation 2]

No, you are right, that was the infamous 'millenium bomber'. But I just find it somewhat misleading - the media always seems to imply that people that cross the border from Canada are stopped by Canadian officials when in fact it is U.S. customs doing the inspection.

Although yesterday the CDNS found these guys -

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/20...r-crossing.html