Bush Says US 'Does Not Torture'

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Because of this, what's written in the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights does extend only to U.S. citizens and Permanent Residents. Anyone else (including those who're here illegally), are not covered.

Nonsense.

Unless you can expand on that, it looks like to me you've got nothing but "some hot air on this one."

Persons - that includes individuals other than citizens and residents - are afforded protections under the Bill of Rights.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

We should limit torture to feathers and furry hand-cuffs.

[Caladan 19]

Because of this, what's written in the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights does extend only to U.S. citizens and Permanent Residents. Anyone else (including those who're here illegally), are not covered.

Nonsense.

BigDog's right. The Constitution says 'persons' and 'people', not 'citizens' or 'permanent residents' or 'legal visitors with a valid I-94.'

Edited October 6, 2007 by Caladan

[Dan J 277]

Torture in any form, does not provide reliable information. Torture also is incredibly counter-productive in the war on terror.

The way public diplomacy has been used by the Bush administration is pretty much like a PR department at corporation. But public diplomacy doesn't really work that way. Especially when we do so much to harm it by using torture, by keeping people locked up in legal limbo, by killing civilians (Bombs, soldiers or contractors), and by disrespecting local customs and culture (When in Rome do as the American soldiers do).

If anything, these actions don't help our cause. They give more ammo to the extremists groups to recruit many more people to fight with them.

We have done some things that actually really help, like the American response to an earthquake in Pakistan a couple years ago, but most of them are overshadowed by everything we mess up.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Rights & Privileges

Well, here's my issue with the wording. Yes, it does say "persons." However, that's pretty vague. What does "persons" actually mean? Does it mean anyone and everyone? Only U.S. citizens? U.S. citizens and permanent residents? Who does it and doesn't it include? The word "persons" doesn't specify, so it's all left up to interpretation and this where our legal system comes into play.

If the American legal system says, "persons only means such-and-such" then that's it. That's what it means. It won't matter if that's "right" or "fair." It's a non-issue. All that matters is what our legal system says and if you disagree, you can either moan about or attempt to change it through the proper channels.

From what I gather, individuals other than U.S. citizens or permanent residents are not afforded the same rights and privileges under the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights unless they are here temporarily. A visitor to this country has rights, since they are merely visiting and not intending on staying without legally applying for a work/student/family-based visa. If someone intends on remaining here illegally, abusing the system and draining our resources (which should be reserved for those here legally), then should not be afforded those rights or privileges. Simple as that.

Torture

I agree; torture is a waste of time, manpower, and energy. Worst of all, the information gathered by it is hardly reliable. However, that wasn't what I was arguing. I never once said that "torture is a good thing" or that "we should all practice torture in our spare time!" If anyone gleamed that from my previous posts, then I strongly suggest reading them over again.

What I have been pointing out is that torture occurs all over the globe and on a far more frequent basis than any of us probably realize. No nation is going to advertise it on their "Welcome to [country name]!" website. They're not going to suddenly create "Torture 101" classes at your local university nor are they going to show agents of any particular organization on the nightly news, winning medals or awards, for conducting torture, while making statements such as, "Yeah, Jim and I really tortured the f**k out of that #######!"

Torture happens. It does. It may not be nice, it may not be wanted and it may not even be absolutely necessary sometimes, but that doesn't mean it doesn't take place. If you believe torture has ceased all over the world (with the possible exception of the U.S., because this country was dumb enough to get caught doing it), then you need to pull your head out of the sand.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

From what I gather, individuals other than U.S. citizens or permanent residents are not afforded the same rights and privileges under the U.S. Constitution and Bill of Rights unless they are here temporarily. A visitor to this country has rights, since they are merely visiting and not intending on staying without legally applying for a work/student/family-based visa. If someone intends on remaining here illegally, abusing the system and draining our resources (which should be reserved for those here legally), then should not be afforded those rights or privileges. Simple as that.

That's your opinion how it should be which is a far cry from how it actually is. Simple as that.

[almaty 19]

lol...dead pool..put down the bottle and go to bed... that is the biggest bs i have heard on vj for awhile..if you are illegal, then "then should not be afforded those rights or privileges. : this is the land of freedom and not some f##king banana republic...

Edited October 7, 2007 by almaty

[desert_fox 32]

Illegals are aforded all the protections of the US Constitution and the Bils of Rights.

Illegals are tried every day by juries and sent to prision. When they are released the ICE will be waiting for them to take them into custody and into removal proceedings.

\

[almaty 19]

Illegals are aforded all the protections of the US Constitution and the Bils of Rights.

Illegals are tried every day by juries and sent to prision. When they are released the ICE will be waiting for them to take them into custody and into removal proceedings.

\

brother fox, i agree..they ahve the same right oi go to prison as citizens do. except they get deported later..a good plan

[Ban Hammer 14,182]

this is the land of freedom and not some f##king banana republic...

true, that's where most of the illegals come from

[desert_fox 32]

Illegals are aforded all the protections of the US Constitution and the Bils of Rights.

Illegals are tried every day by juries and sent to prision. When they are released the ICE will be waiting for them to take them into custody and into removal proceedings.

\

brother fox, i agree..they ahve the same right oi go to prison as citizens do. except they get deported later..a good plan

Those are the ones that are still living...if Texas doesnt execute them.

[almaty 19]

Illegals are aforded all the protections of the US Constitution and the Bils of Rights.

Illegals are tried every day by juries and sent to prision. When they are released the ICE will be waiting for them to take them into custody and into removal proceedings.

\

brother fox, i agree..they ahve the same right oi go to prison as citizens do. except they get deported later..a good plan

Those are the ones that are still living...if Texas doesnt execute them.

i never commit a crime intexas..and especially harris county..fan belt is all i am saying

[desert_fox 32]

torture??

When we were in Viet-Nam......take em up in a heliocopter at 1200 feet...if they didnt feel like talking..we would just throw one out....the rest suddenly would tell us what we wanted to know...

no pain...no torture.