Is there a requirement that the LPR and USC spouse have ever lived together?

[geowrian 22,339]

Depends on what exactly is being examined - eligibility for an immigration benefit (visa, green card, etc.) or fraud. Being ineligible for a benefit due to a lack of evidence is different (but not exclusive) from committing fraud. The burden is on the applicant to prove eligibility for a benefit. The burden is on USCIS to show fraud/misrepresentation.

[candybabe 46]

23 minutes ago, dimbmw said:

 

This is all irrelevant.

We are talking about a person who has been a LPR for over 5 years and is not a citizen yet.

the proof is in the pudding , in this case the dates - when the date you become an LPR as a spouse of a USC and the date of your divorce documents from said USC (which you will need to attach to your N-400) are close in date, not to mention same year , the IO will def consider those discrepancies relevant - to the entire case, not just the naturalization application.  

[dimbmw 1]

28 minutes ago, geowrian said:

Depends on what exactly is being examined - eligibility for an immigration benefit (visa, green card, etc.) or fraud. Being ineligible for a benefit due to a lack of evidence is different (but not exclusive) from committing fraud. The burden is on the applicant to prove eligibility for a benefit. The burden is on USCIS to show fraud/misrepresentation.

 

Exactly.

 

That's exactly how I understand the law. If a person is applying using a 5-year rule he/she has to prove that he has fulfilled his 5 years of residency requirement and other things relative to a 5-year application. He does not have to prove anything about his prior marriage, even though he has to answer questions about it, if asked.

[dimbmw 1]

14 minutes ago, candybabe said:

the proof is in the pudding , in this case the dates - when the date you become an LPR as a spouse of a USC and the date of your divorce documents from said USC (which you will need to attach to your N-400) are close in date, not to mention same year , the IO will def consider those discrepancies relevant - to the entire case, not just the naturalization application.  

 

I personally do not consider that these are any sort of "discrepancies".  Could be a valid marriage IMHO. People tried to live together and found that does not work for them.

 

[Villanelle 4,123]

9 hours ago, dimbmw said:

 

Exactly.

 

That's exactly how I understand the law. If a person is applying using a 5-year rule he/she has to prove that he has fulfilled his 5 years of residency requirement and other things relative to a 5-year application. He does not have to prove anything about his prior marriage, even though he has to answer questions about it, if asked.

I somewhat disagree. If a person is applying using a 5-year rule he/she has to prove that he has fulfilled his 5 years of residency requirement and other things relative to a 5-year application. Thats all true. But the next part - USCIS can take a second look at the way you got the GC. They can ask questions and even ask for proof. 

[Bugs 455]

21 hours ago, dimbmw said:

 

Exactly.

 

That's exactly how I understand the law. If a person is applying using a 5-year rule he/she has to prove that he has fulfilled his 5 years of residency requirement and other things relative to a 5-year application. He does not have to prove anything about his prior marriage, even though he has to answer questions about it, if asked.

USCIS can require evidence confirming the marriage was bona fide, if that is what was needed for initial entry and LPR status, before granting citizenship.  Failure to do this, while it wouldn't get your LPR status revoked or get you deported, could result in a delay on being granted this new status until it is provided.

 

Everyone here is telling you this.  

 

If your mind is so intent on what is otherwise, why bother posting in here?  While you certainly are not the first to ignore advice on here, as many choose not to, only to come crawling back in here regretting it afterwards, if they come back at all, it still somewhat baffles me why people ask for advice if they are so set on not listening to it, especially when it is unanimous.  

 

You simply are not going to the get confirmation you want here.  Take it....or leave it.

[dimbmw 1]

16 hours ago, Damara said:

I somewhat disagree. If a person is applying using a 5-year rule he/she has to prove that he has fulfilled his 5 years of residency requirement and other things relative to a 5-year application. Thats all true. But the next part - USCIS can take a second look at the way you got the GC. They can ask questions and even ask for proof. 

 

I don't think they can ask for "proof". They can ask certain questions, and ask to answer them. But let's not confuse the burden of proof with the burden of answering questions.

[Villanelle 4,123]

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Office of Citizenship/Citizenship Resource Center Site/Publications/PDFs/G-1151.pdf

 

 

 

This fact sheet attempts to simplify the naturalization
eligibility requirements and list of documents that can
be asked for during the naturalization interview. This fact
sheet references the most commonly used documents,
but is not an all-inclusive list. A USCIS Officer may ask
for additional information and documents that are not
included in this fact sheet. 

[dimbmw 1]

4 hours ago, Bugs said:

USCIS can require evidence confirming the marriage was bona fide, if that is what was needed for initial entry and LPR status, before granting citizenship.  Failure to do this, while it wouldn't get your LPR status revoked or get you deported, could result in a delay on being granted this new status until it is provided.

 

Everyone here is telling you this.  

 

If your mind is so intent on what is otherwise, why bother posting in here?  While you certainly are not the first to ignore advice on here, as many choose not to, only to come crawling back in here regretting it afterwards, if they come back at all, it still somewhat baffles me why people ask for advice if they are so set on not listening to it, especially when it is unanimous.  

 

You simply are not going to the get confirmation you want here.  Take it....or leave it.

 

My mind is very clear. I asked a specific question (see the name of this thread). Instead of providing a clear answer, which turned out to be " NO ", someone started to bring up something I never asked about. Indeed, I knew that the service has a right to review the circumstances that led to LPR status and may want to question it, but if they choose to do so, it will be THEIR burden of proof to prove that the marriage was not bona fide, as the LPR status has over 5 years of age. Then another someone started confusing the duty of answering the questions with the burden of proof, which are totally 2 different animals in my opinion.

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by dimbmw

[dimbmw 1]

11 minutes ago, Damara said:

https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/USCIS/Office of Citizenship/Citizenship Resource Center Site/Publications/PDFs/G-1151.pdf

 

 

 

This fact sheet attempts to simplify the naturalization
eligibility requirements and list of documents that can
be asked for during the naturalization interview. This fact
sheet references the most commonly used documents,
but is not an all-inclusive list. A USCIS Officer may ask
for additional information and documents that are not
included in this fact sheet. 

 

Damara, let me make it easier for you.

Let me ask you, do you feel a difference when a police officer asks a wife to prove that she did not kill her husband and when the police officer asks where she was the day when he was killed ?

Edited July 6, 2017 by dimbmw

[Bugs 455]

36 minutes ago, dimbmw said:

 

I don't think they can ask for "proof". They can ask certain questions, and ask to answer them. But let's not confuse the burden of proof with the burden of answering questions.

This is incorrect in regards to GRANTING citizenship.  Correct, however, in regards to revocation or deportation.

[Bugs 455]

31 minutes ago, dimbmw said:

 

My mind is very clear. I asked a specific question (see the name of this thread). Instead of providing a clear answer, which turned out to be " NO ", someone started to bring up something I never asked about. Indeed, I knew that the service has a right to review the circumstances that led to LPR status and may want to question it, but if they choose to do so, it will be THEIR burden of proof to prove that the marriage was not bona fide, as the LPR status has over 5 years of age. Then another someone started confusing the duty of answering the questions with the burden of proof, which are totally 2 different animals in my opinion.

 

Your title asks in regard to gaining citizenship.  Burden of proof lies on you if they want it, if you want to gain this new status.  It becomes their burden of proof if they are revoking your already granted status and subsequent deportation.  Every reply except maybe one or two have been consistent in this from what I've read.  The confusion is only when the reader fails to separate the two scenarios.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Bugs

[dimbmw 1]

1 hour ago, Bugs said:

This is incorrect in regards to GRANTING citizenship.  Correct, however, in regards to revocation or deportation.

 

So basically are you saying that in order to grant citizenceship under the 5-year they may ask an applicant to prove once again that his/her marriage was bona fide. Can you provide a link to the law that CLEARLY states that? My current understanding of the law is that they may question the original marriage but not for the purpose of granting/not granting citizenceship but to see if they can subsequently revoke the LPR status. In other words, I don't think they may just refuse to issue citizenship and be good with that, they might either grant citizenceship or proceed with the attempt to revoke the LPR. 

[Bugs 455]

3 hours ago, dimbmw said:

 

So basically are you saying that in order to grant citizenceship under the 5-year they may ask an applicant to prove once again that his/her marriage was bona fide. Can you provide a link to the law that CLEARLY states that? My current understanding of the law is that they may question the original marriage but not for the purpose of granting/not granting citizenceship but to see if they can subsequently revoke the LPR status. In other words, I don't think they may just refuse to issue citizenship and be good with that, they might either grant citizenceship or proceed with the attempt to revoke the LPR. 

Of course they are always on the lookout for evidence of fraud, and, yes, that would likely result in revocation/deportation.  There is no question on this.

 

However, absence of such clear evidence, such revocation/deportation will not occur.  This is because burden of proof lies on them in this regard.

 

It is your duty, however, to provide enough evidence of the contrary for them to grant status, whether for entry visa, initial LPR status, or citizenship.

 

What does the law say about this? 

 

The law explicitly states that any entry visa or LPR status that is marriage based must be based on evidence of a bona fide marriage.  It also states that the burden of proof is on the applicant when seeking to gain this type of visa or LPR status.  

 

USCIS adjunctator guides also state that the entire history of a naturalization applicant's immigration file will be looked at when reviewing an N-400.  This means that they revisit previous applications for visa, LPR, and any evidence provided with them, as well as entries, interviews, and so on.  Therefore any discrepancies between this previous information and new information provided in and with the N-400 may result in a request for evidence to resolve these discrepancies before choosing to grant citizenship.   This means they may ask for evidence of a bona fide marriage again if they find that, since the LPR status was granted, the marriage didn't look like a genuine marriage after all (such as living apart).  

 

There is no law that explicitly states that the USCIS officer must ask for such evidence in a 5 year N-400 review, because it is not blanket and is up to the discretion of the USCIS officer to decide if that is needed, as is the case for any discrepancy. Nor is there a law that says they cannot.  Does this mean they will ask for this in your case?  Maybe, maybe not.  They are not required to, but they are not prohibited from doing so and can delay your citizenship until it is provided by you.

 

Why do we know this?  Because there are numerous 5 year N-400 applicants on here that explicitly state they were asked for such evidence and which resulted in delays and/or denials without such evidence.  This is the benefit of something like this website, with thousands upon thousands of experienced applicants can share their stories and advice.  It would be prudent to listen, because, usually consensus on a answer is the correct one here. 

 

Again, you may pass through the N-400 process easily, and wonder what all the fuss was about.  But you may not.  And, due to the latter, it would always be better to be prepared for the worse than sorry.  

 

Something tells me, though, that you don't feel you would be able to provide such evidence, or, worse, did actually commit fraud, or you wouldn't be so up in arms against such advice.  Hopefully it is just the former - and if so, I believe I presented to you options at your disposal for providing such evidence despite living apart.  

 

Again, take heed.

 

 

 

[Villanelle 4,123]

3 hours ago, dimbmw said:

 

So basically are you saying that in order to grant citizenceship under the 5-year they may ask an applicant to prove once again that his/her marriage was bona fide. Can you provide a link to the law that CLEARLY states that? My current understanding of the law is that they may question the original marriage but not for the purpose of granting/not granting citizenceship but to see if they can subsequently revoke the LPR status. In other words, I don't think they may just refuse to issue citizenship and be good with that, they might either grant citizenceship or proceed with the attempt to revoke the LPR. 

 Everything Bugs posted is correct, but I still think you are going to come back and argue about it more....

 

Your current understanding of the law is incorrect. They can question the original marriage and often do. Why? Lying for an immigration benefit demonstrates a lack of moral character. So yes, it is used for the purpose of granting/not granting citizenship. It can also lead to a revocation of the GC. 

 

As to the question you directed at me....what??? Another hypothetical scenario? Oh my. This is getting old. The pamphlet clearly states they can ask for additional information and or documents. Its clearly written.