New report highlights climate footprint of electric car battery production

[Dashinka 25,897]

Personally, I am not a big critic of EVs, they can be very fun to drive, but do the buyers of these vehicles deserve a tax break for supposedly being "green"?

 

In the quest for greater mileage per charge, electric car batteries are getting much bigger. But since battery production is energy consuming and to some extent cancels out climate benefit, it is vital that production becomes more energy efficient and that the use of fossil electricity is minimized. This according to a report that IVL Swedish Environmental Research Institute has carried out on behalf of the Swedish Energy Agency and the Swedish Transport Administration.

 

– Electric and hybrid cars have major advantages over petrol and diesel vehicles, especially when it comes to local emissions and noise levels. But it is also important to assess the whole picture and to minimize environmental impact in the production stage, says Lisbeth Dahllöf, researcher at IVL Swedish Environmental Research Institute.

Together with colleague Mia Romare, she has reviewed the literature on greenhouse gas emissions and energy consumption during the production and recycling of lithium-ion automotive batteries for light vehicles.

According to the authors of the report, the production of lithium-ion batteries for light electric vehicles releases on average 150-200 kilos of carbon dioxide equivalents per kilowatt-hour battery. One of the smallest electric cars on the market, Nissan Leaf, uses batteries of approx. 30 kWh; many new models have batteries of 60 and 100 kWh. An electric car with a 100kWh battery has thus emitted 15-20 tons of carbon dioxide even before the vehicle ignition is turned on. This calculation assumes a 50-70 per cent fossil share in the electricity mix.

– This means that you shouldn’t buy an electric car with a larger battery than is necessary. For a sustainable future, it is important that the production of electric car batteries is as energy-efficient as possible and made with electricity that is either completely without, or with a very low, carbon emission, says Mia Romare.

 

http://www.ivl.se/english/startpage/top-menu/pressroom/press-releases/press-releases---arkiv/2017-06-21-new-report-highlights-climate-footprint-of-electric-car-battery-production.html

[IAMX 3,055]

I'm a huge fan of EV's, and no, people like myself who drive EV's/hybrids should not get subsidized discounts and special treatment on a national level.

 

However, on the state level (which also includes local level), it does make sense, especially in urban areas, given the move to EV's signals less smog pollution which means cleaner air to breathe. It also means more energy independence rather than relying on international oil cartels that price-fix on oil and benefit from speculative markets (junk markets).

 

I think the issue here is one that directly relates to national sovereignty and where the oil companies can hold more power and authority than a national government has. So I directly see curbing the oil industry as something that benefits American both sovereignty and local air pollution. Whether thats in the form of EV's, hydrogen, nuclear power, etc.. should be up to the US market to decide.

 

As you pointed out, the process itself of producing is polluting, the idea that driving an EV or hybrid is cleaner is a joke, it's something for the bourgeois left uses to materialistically act like they're superior to others. Common stupidity in the Bay Area I dealt with for many years, especially in the city (SF).

Edited June 22, 2017 by IAMX

[Dashinka 25,897]

7 minutes ago, IAMX said:

I'm a huge fan of EV's, and no, people like myself who drive EV's/hybrids should not get subsidized discounts and special treatment on a national level.

 

However, on the state level (which also includes local level), it does make sense, especially in urban areas, given the move to EV's signals less smog pollution which means cleaner air to breathe. It also means more energy independence rather than relying on international oil cartels that price-fix on oil and benefit from speculative markets (junk markets).

 

I think the issue here is one that directly relates to national sovereignty and where the oil companies can hold more power and authority than a national government has. So I directly see curbing the oil industry as something that benefits American both sovereignty and local air pollution. Whether thats in the form of EV's, hydrogen, nuclear power, etc.. should be up to the US market to decide.

I agree, if a state, or city wants to incentivize EVs due to a local issue, that is just fine.  I also agree that EVs do help play a role in energy independence so-to-speak, as it can impact the overall market (oil bathtub) and reduce the overall cost and security.  I think what we saw in Saudi Arabia recently is a great example.  Their leadership definitely seems to understand they need to diversify their economy which will take some time, but it does seem to be a step in the right direction as to the leadership/succession change.

Edited June 22, 2017 by Bill & Katya

[IAMX 3,055]

10 minutes ago, Bill & Katya said:

I agree, if a state, or city wants to incentivize EVs due to a local issue, that is just fine.  I also agree that EVs do help play a role in energy independence so-to-speak, as it can impact the overall market (oil bathtub) and reduce the overall cost and security.  I think what we saw in Saudi Arabia recently is a great example.  Their leadership definitely seems to understand they need to diversify their economy which will take some time, but it does seem to be a step in the right direction as to the leadership/succession change.

Plus, having driven a Tesla Roadster when working for Google (before they were mass produced), I've seen first hand how insane the power/torque is on electric cars.

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2015/12/19/teslas-quicker-gas-cars/

Quote

Teslas use electric motors which create maximum torque — the tendency of force to rotate an object about an axis — at zero rotations per minute and continue to generate the same amount of torque at pretty much all RPM levels. Internal combustion engines by contrast have very low torque at the beginning and end of their torque curves and high torque at the centre of their torque curve. That’s why they need to be started out in a low gear and rapidly shifted upward as speed increases, to match the torque output to the speed of the car.

 

 

Teslas use electricity in batteries instead of physical fuel. Getting electrons from a battery to an electric motor is much faster than getting fuel from a gas tank to a piston. Electrons travel much faster along a wire than fuel does along a fuel line, and the electrons basically go straight to the place where they are needed, while the fuel goes through a fuel pump, then to a fuel injector, then is sprayed into a piston, and then is ignited, turning into force which drives the piston to finally create torque. At idle in an internal combustion car, there is already fuel traveling through the fuel line, gas pump, fuel injector, and igniting in the piston, but a lot more fuel is needed to accelerate.

 

 

I liken the efficiency of electric cars to that of computer parts.. hard drives especially. They use the same form of magnetism where spindles start upat max speed in an instant and can stay at constant speeds efficiently for many years. I had one spindle drive (IDE) for nearly 10 years, an old Raptor drive that was on 24/7 and spun at 10,000 RPM. Energy cost was extremely low.. I can't imagine if it used combustion how inefficient it would be.

Edited June 22, 2017 by IAMX

[CaliCat 3,957]

1 hour ago, Bill & Katya said:

Personally, I am not a big critic of EVs, they can be very fun to drive, but do the buyers of these vehicles deserve a tax break for supposedly being "green"?

 

In the quest for greater mileage per charge, electric car batteries are getting much bigger. But since battery production is energy consuming and to some extent cancels out climate benefit, it is vital that production becomes more energy efficient and that the use of fossil electricity is minimized. This according to a report that IVL Swedish Environmental Research Institute has carried out on behalf of the Swedish Energy Agency and the Swedish Transport Administration.

 

– Electric and hybrid cars have major advantages over petrol and diesel vehicles, especially when it comes to local emissions and noise levels. But it is also important to assess the whole picture and to minimize environmental impact in the production stage, says Lisbeth Dahllöf, researcher at IVL Swedish Environmental Research Institute.

Together with colleague Mia Romare, she has reviewed the literature on greenhouse gas emissions and energy consumption during the production and recycling of lithium-ion automotive batteries for light vehicles.

According to the authors of the report, the production of lithium-ion batteries for light electric vehicles releases on average 150-200 kilos of carbon dioxide equivalents per kilowatt-hour battery. One of the smallest electric cars on the market, Nissan Leaf, uses batteries of approx. 30 kWh; many new models have batteries of 60 and 100 kWh. An electric car with a 100kWh battery has thus emitted 15-20 tons of carbon dioxide even before the vehicle ignition is turned on. This calculation assumes a 50-70 per cent fossil share in the electricity mix.

– This means that you shouldn’t buy an electric car with a larger battery than is necessary. For a sustainable future, it is important that the production of electric car batteries is as energy-efficient as possible and made with electricity that is either completely without, or with a very low, carbon emission, says Mia Romare.

 

http://www.ivl.se/english/startpage/top-menu/pressroom/press-releases/press-releases---arkiv/2017-06-21-new-report-highlights-climate-footprint-of-electric-car-battery-production.html

 

A lot of it hinges on the environmental costs of getting the lithium required to the batteries, and then, to turn it into the long-lasting battery material, it takes a large amount of cobalt and other chemicals. In the end, you end up with sludge. In addition, if you live in state that depends on oil or coal for electricity - TX and OH come to mind - your EV will most likely produce more carbon emissions in the end, than a gas-powered car would.

 

Elon Musk has a daunting task ahead of him. He wants Tesla to mass produce EVs, but many scientists are not sure where the lithium will come from. 

[Dashinka 25,897]

8 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

 

A lot of it hinges on the environmental costs of getting the lithium required to the batteries, and then, to turn it into the long-lasting battery material, it takes a large amount of cobalt and other chemicals. In the end, you end up with sludge. In addition, if you live in state that depends on oil or coal for electricity - TX and OH come to mind - your EV will most likely produce more carbon emissions in the end, than a gas-powered car would.

 

Elon Musk has a daunting task ahead of him. He wants Tesla to mass produce EVs, but many scientists are not sure where the lithium will come from. 

Agreed.  With the Model 3 coming out soon going to a whole new class of buyers, the tasks will indeed be daunting.  As you stated, we also have the other concern of finding the raw materials to build these cars/batteries.  Digging stuff out of the ground can be very dirty, I often hear of stories from China and Russia where the environment around a mining operation is atrocious.

[CaliCat 3,957]

1 hour ago, Bill & Katya said:

Agreed.  With the Model 3 coming out soon going to a whole new class of buyers, the tasks will indeed be daunting.  As you stated, we also have the other concern of finding the raw materials to build these cars/batteries.  Digging stuff out of the ground can be very dirty, I often hear of stories from China and Russia where the environment around a mining operation is atrocious.

 

Lithium is great for batteries but you need high grade material and to produce it you end up with slush. The other factor is that the biggest reserves - if you can call them that - are in Russia, China, and Bolivia - none of these countries are environmentally conscious, or economically friend to the US.

[IAMX 3,055]

1 hour ago, Bill & Katya said:

Agreed.  With the Model 3 coming out soon going to a whole new class of buyers, the tasks will indeed be daunting.  As you stated, we also have the other concern of finding the raw materials to build these cars/batteries.  Digging stuff out of the ground can be very dirty, I often hear of stories from China and Russia where the environment around a mining operation is atrocious.

Not only that but turning to natural resources also invokes the economic principle of "scarcity", which is the basis for 1st world capitalism. Is there a comparative advantage in dealing with cartels vs. limited countries involved in mining for car battery parts which may not give the US a good deal? Is it wise to invest, for the future, that much into what could be much more limited resources? This rational thought process is what leads me to criticize the government-funded programs and subsidies because it doesn't recognize these factors.. only promoting "green" technology no matter the cost (emphasis), forcing businesses into selling overpriced vehicles to make a survivable profit. There may yet be better alternatives.

 

 

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

39 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

 

Lithium is great for batteries but you need high grade material and to produce it you end up with slush. The other factor is that the biggest reserves - if you can call them that - are in Russia, China, and Bolivia - none of these countries are environmentally conscious, or economically friend to the US.

We may be on the verge of 5X improvement in Lithium tech

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/05/22/529116034/at-94-lithium-ion-pioneer-eyes-a-new-longer-lasting-battery

[Dashinka 25,897]

59 minutes ago, ccneat said:

We may be on the verge of 5X improvement in Lithium tech

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/05/22/529116034/at-94-lithium-ion-pioneer-eyes-a-new-longer-lasting-battery

This may make great strides in the whole "range anxiety" issues and time to fill up that go along with EVs, but we still need the Li, and possibly even more with this design.

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

Just now, Bill & Katya said:

This may make great strides in the whole "range anxiety" issues and time to fill up that go along with EVs, but we still need the Li, and possibly even more with this design.

that is huge for me personally.  Where I like to go is off the beaten path and I am terrible about planning ahead on fuel.

I often thought if Tesla threw in an on-demand vehicle rental package to supplement the long trips they would overcome that objection.

[Dashinka 25,897]

39 minutes ago, ccneat said:

that is huge for me personally.  Where I like to go is off the beaten path and I am terrible about planning ahead on fuel.

I often thought if Tesla threw in an on-demand vehicle rental package to supplement the long trips they would overcome that objection.

That is one of the biggest issues with EVs.  Most people probably can use EVs with no problems and recharge while they are sleeping, or at work, but for those that like to visit those huge balls of twine, or whatever other site off the beaten path have to plan ahead.  The other thing I constantly see with EVs is that they always seem to be using the suburban/rural family model.  That is to say, the family living in a house with a garage for their vehicles.  It seems to me, with all my global travels, that a lot of people do not have dedicated parking spaces and live in high rise, or in the case of Russia, Soviet era flats.

 

That being said, it would be great if they can commercialize this battery.  It may take a few years, but the battery leap would be enormous.

[Cyberfx1024 7,980]

1 hour ago, Bill & Katya said:

That is one of the biggest issues with EVs.  Most people probably can use EVs with no problems and recharge while they are sleeping, or at work, but for those that like to visit those huge balls of twine, or whatever other site off the beaten path have to plan ahead.  The other thing I constantly see with EVs is that they always seem to be using the suburban/rural family model.  That is to say, the family living in a house with a garage for their vehicles.  It seems to me, with all my global travels, that a lot of people do not have dedicated parking spaces and live in high rise, or in the case of Russia, Soviet era flats.

 

That being said, it would be great if they can commercialize this battery.  It may take a few years, but the battery leap would be enormous.

Also another thing to think of as well is that some of the EV's like Tesla offer a keyless engine starter without having a key any where around the vehicle at all, it simply uses a verified app on your phone. This is really good when you are in a urban environment with cell reception. But there was already a case this year where a couple took their Tesla to a place with no service and then could not restart the car because no reception and no key fob. 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4128220/Tesla-driver-stranded-desert-forgot-keys.html

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

4 minutes ago, cyberfx1024 said:

Also another thing to think of as well is that some of the EV's like Tesla offer a keyless engine starter without having a key any where around the vehicle at all, it simply uses a verified app on your phone. This is really good when you are in a urban environment with cell reception. But there was already a case this year where a couple took their Tesla to a place with no service and then could not restart the car because no reception and no key fob. 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4128220/Tesla-driver-stranded-desert-forgot-keys.html

Get off of Sprint, Problem solved

[IAMX 3,055]

3 hours ago, ccneat said:

We may be on the verge of 5X improvement in Lithium tech

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2017/05/22/529116034/at-94-lithium-ion-pioneer-eyes-a-new-longer-lasting-battery

It's extremely nice but unless there becomes a much more widely available resource in batteries the scarcity problem looms large. The comparative advantage issue of others controlling your resources would still make me question government incentives. 

 

3 minutes ago, cyberfx1024 said:

Also another thing to think of as well is that some of the EV's like Tesla offer a keyless engine starter without having a key any where around the vehicle at all, it simply uses a verified app on your phone. This is really good when you are in a urban environment with cell reception. But there was already a case this year where a couple took their Tesla to a place with no service and then could not restart the car because no reception and no key fob. 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4128220/Tesla-driver-stranded-desert-forgot-keys.html

Ouch. Doesn't use RFID as backup? Lame.