Post Embassy Drama, UK VJer 'Life In The USA' Edition.

[ChasUno 101]

Nick-Nick, I absolutely agree. I cannot stand stereotyping, and with a country as wide, vast and varied as the USA values, cultures, morals and beliefs vary wildly from one end to another. I was brought up as Church of England, and went to school at a time where hymns, prayers and bible passages were read out during morning assembly. For many reasons that are not relevant for others to know, I chose the path of humanitarianism when it comes my morals and beliefs.

However, when politicians that express fundamentalist religious views (e.g. Mike Huckabee, Ben Carson) are running for office and/ or the presidency, there is a fear that these people will get into power and then use religious beliefs rather than common sense to shape future laws. Furthermore, any politician that spreads hate and fear based on their religious beliefs needs to be identified and challenged as much as possible.

I also have to applaud swji89 for such a balanced and reasoned response. If this was the general attitude that the public sees of Christians, then there would be no issue and we'd all get along fine. I'm sure the majority of practising Christians are fine, but I do feel they need to be more vocal in condemning the more extremist factions of their faith, much the way many people feel about Islam in Europe. The more they publicly disown these extremists, the more society will see the general religion as fine and the extremists as just a tiny bunch of lunatics.

Not intending to cause any upsets, however, swji89 raised some points that I would like to courteously address (answers in red).

However, is someone a bigot for holding a different view on things than someone else? I don't necessarily think so.

I absolutely agree with you. A bigot is not someone who holds a different view, a bigot is someone who tries to FORCE that view onto someone else as per the Kentucky court clerk. Her job is to deal with the public, it's not her job to pick and choose who she chooses to work with whilst in that position.

Nonetheless, the law is the law whether someone agrees with it or not. Therefore, RE the Kentucky case - unless something can be arranged where another clerk can grant licenses as they wish while that particular clerk can be exempt from doing something which is against their beliefs, then perhaps the price that they need to pay for holding to that belief is to leave or lose their job.

Absolutely agree. Again, she is employed to deal with all law abiding US citizens in a public position. It's not up to her to deny certain groups of people something that they are legally entitled to. If she were granted exemption, then that sets a precedent whereas others can also claim they can deny others based on their beliefs. This is quite simply, discrimination. I agree, she should either be posted elsewhere or leave her job as she currently does not hold the right qualities to carry out that job.

However, is there any exemption for churches in the US with the passing of the same sex marriage bill? Over in the UK, as you probably know, churches can exempt themselves from holding same sex marriage services if they wish, while the Church of England is exempt by law. If a certain church is happy to do same sex marriages they can, but the beliefs of others are protected in that not every church has to. That seems fair, no? That will probably change as time goes on, but it seems like something of a fair compromise to me?

The important issue here is that churches carry out WEDDING CEREMONIES. They do not issue marriage licences. A church is not a public place, and as such has the discretion as to whether to allow a couple to wed in their church or not. They cannot be forced to carry out a same sex wedding any more than a Synagogue can be forced to carry out a Christian wedding or a Mosque be forced to carry out a Jewish wedding. A Courthouse meanwhile deals with all law abiding US citizens regardless of faith or belief, and as such cannot deny services (rights) based on an individuals personal beliefs. And yes, when same sex marriage was made legal in the UK, the Church of England (who had protested against same sex marriage) was granted a law that made it illegal for them to carry them out. It's a ridiculous situation, because on one hand same sex marriage is now legal across the the whole of the UK, yet illegal in the Church of England. Talk about contradictory, and as I've mentioned previously, many feel that the COE is doing more damage to Christianity by showing outdated and discriminatory beliefs than simply allowing same sex couples to wed if they want to.

When it comes to 'Christians' using the Bible to justify segregation, there's nothing in the Bible that justifies that.

Absolutely agree. And in the New Testament, Jesus mentioned nothing about homosexuality. The bible also mentions plenty about divorce, adultery (including beating wives to death), allowing slavery, eating shell fish, wearing clothes of a mixed fabric etc. etc. Many feel that the fundamentalists are hypocritical as they only seem to focus on ONE very small section of the old testament, yet conveniently ignore many other sins and abominations that they partake in.

"Live and let live" goes both ways, as you say. If you feel individual Christians are 'hassling' you, then I apologise, as that shouldn't be the case - as Christians are called to be loving, even in the way we stand firm to what we believe. Noone is any different from anyone else when it comes to their status before God - I believe we are all 'sinners' i.e. we have all lived lives displeasing to God in one way or another, so I have no right to 'condemn' anyone else - although it depends what someone means by 'condemn', I suppose!

Again, I completely agree. All people, whatever their chosen faith, have the right to believe in what they choose to believe. They do not have the right to inflict their beliefs onto others and/ or use them to shape the law of the land. As mentioned, if less extremist believers/ groups were heard from (Family Research Council, Westboro Baptists etc.) in favour of more moderate and tolerant people such as yourself, then the USA, and the World, would be a better place.

I hope what I have said doesn't cause any upset. I can't promise it won't offend, but I hope you see I've tried to say it in a gracious spirit. Please accept my apologies if not.

No upset nor offence was caused, and no apologies needed. Though my beliefs are totally different to yours, I appreciate your balanced and measured response, plus applaud and respect you for being a good example of what I feel a good Christian should represent. Perhaps you should consider becoming a representative of your church once you get to the USA, Christianity could certainly do with more people like you for their PR!

Thank you for the healthy debate, and wishing you the very best!

Edited August 30, 2015 by ChasUno

[Nich-Nick 3,353]

However, when politicians that express fundamentalist religious views (e.g. Mike Huckabee, Ben Carson) are running for office and/ or the presidency, there is a fear that these people will get into power and then use religious beliefs rather than common sense to shape future laws.

This brought back a memory of something all of you would be too young to remember. When John F. Kennedy was running for President, I clearly remember adults discussing ---OMG, we can't have a Catholic as President. Our country will be run by the Pope.

It was probably the first widely televised campaign because television had become commonplace in the American home. I remember Nixon looked horrible on TV in the debate compared to the youthful charismatic JFK. And the rest is history.

"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute; where no Catholic prelate would tell the President--should he be Catholic--how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote." --John Fitzgerald Kennedy, Sept. 1960

Edited August 30, 2015 by Nich-Nick

[swji89 41]

Some good stuff! I'm very pleased that we could have a mature to and fro on this. Thanks for that.

Chas, I had prepared another long post typed out, but I'm not sure it's the best place as Nich-Nick intimated. I'm sure you've gathered that I take a different view to you on the matter due to what I believe the Bible to say. I disagree with you that Jesus never spoke on homosexuality (he did so, for example, in reiterating marriage between a man and a woman) and while you may call it 'outdated' I believe God's word to be timeless and, as I trust him knowing what he has done in my life in Jesus dying for me on the cross to save me from my sin, I trust in his stated view on other things. This includes abortion (I'm pro-life in the American terminology), sex outside marriage etc. etc. etc. I appreciate that must be hard to know that others feel this way. However, equally, I don't expect you to think the same way I do, but I hope you respect my right to believe and adhere to it in my life, just as I respect what the law allows those to do who do not believe the same things I do. I also hope you appreciate that it's similar to me knowing that there are people out there who will have ill-will towards me for not affirming same sex marriage etc. I'm glad that this discussion hasn't stirred that up in you and I thank you for your very kind words! I'm pleased that my words have been received in the right spirit.

Following up on your point about 'fundamentalist' politicians - While I don't expect laws to be mad purely on Biblical principle, I do think it is perfectly acceptable for me to lobby politicians about these issues if I choose, just as you have the right to lobby them based on your POV. I hope you can see where I'm coming from on that one? That's democracy, no? Nonetheless, regardless of the law of the land, I am responsible for ensuring that I try and live my life in a Biblical way and my purpose as a believer isn't to dictate people how to live their lives, it's primarily about telling them about Jesus and what he did for us.

Also, I think you may have misinterpreted what I was saying about the Kentucky clerk issue. I don't know the ins and outs about her conduct through all this, so can't comment on that. However, I don't think her not wanting to issue marriage licenses to same sex couples makes her a bigot. I agree with her view, personally. However, as we both agree, as the law is the law, she is in an untenable position. I think it would be a shame for her to lose her job because of it, but there may be no other option in terms of her standing up for what she believes in. I guess my point right back at the start of this was that I think there should be exemptions, perhaps - maybe she should be allowed to pass on certain cases to another clerk. Do you see what I mean? I think it is unfair of her to be forced to choose between her job and her faith, just as she hasn't got the legal right to deny people marriage licenses. Not that I don't expect things to get harder for Christians in this regard, as I've already said. I don't expect things to get easier, yet I'm still human and would hope and long for compromise and not have to worry about losing my job for holding a particular view and wanting to adhere to it. Do you catch my drift?

Now, about that Marmite...

Edited August 30, 2015 by swji89

[ChasUno 101]

Indeed, Marmite. Can there be any other issue that is more divisive?!!!

P.S. I buck the trend by being indifferent to Marmite. Saying that, I'm a Bovril man myself. Have yet to find that over here in the USA!

[swji89 41]

Indeed, Marmite. Can there be any other issue that is more divisive?!!!

P.S. I buck the trend by being indifferent to Marmite. Saying that, I'm a Bovril man myself. Have yet to find that over here in the USA!

I personally love Marmite and am not a fan of Bovril, despite being a football fan! Are you a football man? I normally only associate Bovril with cold, wet nights in football grounds haha

EDIT: Sorry, I did edit my post above to add some other bits and bobs. There is no need to respond if you don't want to, just wanted to make myself clear on a couple of things as you did earlier. Refreshing to have a sensible discussion about this sort of thing as it can easily become inflammatory online, which is always regrettable.

Edited August 30, 2015 by swji89

[Nich-Nick 3,353]

I tasted Marmite once. I didn't spit it out, but would not choose to eat it again. I've forgotten now, but it seems like it tasted like burned tires maybe ?? I would pick something else for my toast. We have some. maybe I will take a refresher taste.

[swji89 41]

I tasted Marmite once. I didn't spit it out, but would not choose to eat it again. I've forgotten now, but it seems like it tasted like burned tires maybe ?? I would pick something else for my toast. We have some. maybe I will take a refresher taste.

Heresy! So is the brown gold readily available in the States, then? This may go some way to compensating for the lack of proper Cadbury's chocolate.

Edited August 30, 2015 by swji89

[Nich-Nick 3,353]

Heresy! So is the brown gold readily available in the States, then? This may go some way to compensating for the lack of proper Cadbury's chocolate.

We find a lot of British in Houston grocery stores. I recently bought Crunchie bars (love) and Penguins (those were new to me) and a bunch of other stuff.

In our house, we regularly have Marmite, Branston Pickle, Colman's mustard, HP Sauce, Ribena, McVitties, Bisto, OXO cubes, assorted candy bars, wine gums, Allsorts, Heinz Beans, Stones Ginger something....I forget...and there's plenty more things we don't buy. Different stores carry different things. Went recently to a grocery that I think of as catering to the Mexican population and found a treasure trove of international foods. Even clotted cream.

Can't speak for Alabama. You will have to go shopping and see what you find.

[Hotter Otter 1,211]

I may have made some toast and told an American friend that Marmite was chocolate spread. I think she's forgiven me but she might not be willing to try any more British food for a while!

Edited August 31, 2015 by Hotter Otter

[LEL 20]

Ribena! Yes, I wanted to buy some squash or cordial when I was last in the US.

No one knew what I was talking about, did I mean Kool Aid? No!!!

I really wanted elderflower cordial and I did spot some syrups in the stores but it's not exactly the same thing.

I'm now going to make elderflower cordial, so that should be interesting.

[LEL 20]

Looks like they sell cordial in Ikea! Another reason to make the 3 hour drive to Houston.

[swji89 41]

Do Publix still have a European aisle?

[LEL 20]

Do Publix still have a European aisle?

I'm not familiar with Publix. I know World Market have lots of European stuff.

[ChasUno 101]

I miss a Morrison's cereal called "Golden Balls". I tried something that looked similar (sort of), Kellog's Corn Pops, but they taste nothing like it

Also surprised that there's not a lot more available in the category of flavoured water. Morrison's, Tescos and Sainsburys all have a wide selection (4 x 1 litre for £1.50 in Morrison's). I found something called flavoured Seltzer Water, but those are disgusting. I found Minute Maid Light, and those taste amazing (15 calories per serving compared with over 100 for regular Minute Maid). But you can't get them in the large containers as per the regular Minute Maid, and the Light version can be hard to find in some stores. Strange that some of the diet drinks aren't more widely available considering the drive to get Americans eating and drinking healthier.

[Nich-Nick 3,353]

I miss a Morrison's cereal called "Golden Balls". I tried something that looked similar (sort of), Kellog's Corn Pops, but they taste nothing like it

Also surprised that there's not a lot more available in the category of flavoured water. Morrison's, Tescos and Sainsburys all have a wide selection (4 x 1 litre for £1.50 in Morrison's). I found something called flavoured Seltzer Water, but those are disgusting. I found Minute Maid Light, and those taste amazing (15 calories per serving compared with over 100 for regular Minute Maid). But you can't get them in the large containers as per the regular Minute Maid, and the Light version can be hard to find in some stores. Strange that some of the diet drinks aren't more widely available considering the drive to get Americans eating and drinking healthier.

Try looking for flavored water on the bottled water aisle instead of with sodas or juices. The flavored seltzers are carbonated and are usually near sodas in my stores or with mixers for cocktails. The plain non-carbonated may be elsewhere.