Charleston Shooting Reignites Debate About Confederate Flag

[JohnR! 5,495]

It's about time we do away with a flag the stands against everything America represents.

On Thursday, hours after a white gunman killed nine people in a black church in Charleston, S.C., a Confederate flag continued to fly over the grounds of the state’s Capitol.

The Supreme Court ruled the same day that Texas did not violate the First Amendment by refusing to allow the flag on its license plates.

The conflict over the banner of the Confederacy has been raging for decades between those who feel it is a symbol of free speech, and others who see it as a symbol of white supremacy. But with a photo emerging of Dylann Roof, the 21-year-old suspect in the Charleston church shootings, posing in front of a car with Confederate plates, the debate has been reignited on social media and beyond about whether the flag should be displayed, and whether politicians should continue to defend the flag as a symbol of Southern heritage.

Representative Mark Sanford of South Carolina, a Republican, and the state’s Republican governor, Nikki R. Haley, are both drawing criticism for their views on the flag. On MSNBC’s “Morning Joe,” Mr. Sanford called the idea of removing the flag a “Pandora’s box” and a “complex issue within our state.”

Ms. Haley, who on Friday called for Mr. Roof to face the death penalty, was also facing criticism for referring to the flag as a “sensitive issue” but refusing to remove it in the past.

A Haley spokesman told ABC that use of the Confederate flag — seen flying high in the South Carolina capital while other flags flew at half-staff — could not be altered without approval from the state Legislature.

Cornell William Brooks, national president of the N.A.A.C.P., said on Friday that those who said the flag was “merely a symbol of years gone by” had it all wrong. The flag, he said, is an “emblem of hate” that should be banished from public life.

“That symbol has to come down,” he said, speaking at a news conference in Charleston. “That symbol must be removed from our state Capitol.”

Several hashtags, #takedownthatflag, #takeitdown and #ConfederateTakeDown, were also being used Friday on Twitter as an informal campaign to prompt South Carolina politicians to remove the flag.

source: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/20/us/charleston-shooting-reignites-debate-about-confederate-flag.html?_r=0

Edited June 20, 2015 by JohnR!

[VOL 425]

Hell

Might as well get rid of alcohol, abortions, guns, drug, hookers, cars, bars, illegal aliens, police while you are at it...

[Expat1 971]

Hell

Might as well get rid of alcohol, abortions, guns, drug, hookers, cars, bars, illegal aliens, police while you are at it...

Nothing left to spend money on. We'd all be rich.

[JohnR! 5,495]

We could hope that people would be encouraged to spend some of that money on getting an education and learning about American history...

It's evident it's too late for some now.. :rofl: :rofl:

Nothing left to spend money on. We'd all be rich.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

As far as tangible actions resulting from this mass murder are concerned, I expect absolutely nothing to happen. The story will be out of the news cycle soon enough and then it will be like nothing ever happened. It's how things go in America. It's how we wend t about and eventually forgot about Sandy Hook, Ft. Hood, Tucson, Aurora, the list goes on and on and on. Bottom line, we collectively pretend to be shocked for a short moment and then we go on with our lives and forget all about it. Then the next mass murder happens as it always has and always will and - well, rinse, repeat.

Tangible action occurs only if the incident is carried out by people claiming to belong to a certain faith. Otherwise, it's just Americans killing each other which happens thousands of times each and every year. We're not doing anything about that either.

[VOL 425]

We could hope that people would be encouraged to spend some of that money on getting an education and learning about American history...

It's evident it's too late for some now.. :rofl: :rofl:

Spoken like a true lib from California, where it's the land of fruits and nuts. It always some west coast yankee or northern yankee crying about the Confederate Flag or a black person.... Boo Hoo Hoo

You take a trip to the Texas Capital we have a nice statue to honor the Confederate, and I am going to assume many other state capitols are the same way...

[VOL 425]

Quote from Texas Capital Confederate Monumnet

DIED

FOR STATES RIGHTS GUARANTEED UNDER THE CONSTITUTION

THE PEOPLE OF THE SOUTH, ANIMATED BY THE SPIRIT OF 1776, TO PRESERVE THEIR RIGHTS, WITHDREW FROM THE FEDERAL COMPACT IN 1861. THE NORTH RESORTED TO COERCION.

THE SOUTH, AGAINST OVERWHELMING NUMBERS AND RESOURCES,

FOUGHT UNTIL EXHAUSTED.

DURING THE WAR THERE WERE TWENTY TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY SEVEN ENGAGEMENTS.

IN EIGHTEEN HUNDRED AND EIGHTY TWO OF THESE, AT LEAST ONE REGIMENT TOOK PART.

NUMBER OF MEN ENLISTED:

CONFEDERATE ARMIES 600,000; FEDERAL ARMIES 2,859,132

LOSSES FROM ALL CAUSES:

CONFEDERATE, 437,000; FEDERAL, 485,216

[JohnR! 5,495]

Sadly you're right. This terrorist act will be swept under the rug, along with many other episodes we're not keen on remembering or honoring...

As far as tangible actions resulting from this mass murder are concerned, I expect absolutely nothing to happen. The story will be out of the news cycle soon enough and then it will be like nothing ever happened. It's how things go in America. It's how we wend t about and eventually forgot about Sandy Hook, Ft. Hood, Tucson, Aurora, the list goes on and on and on. Bottom line, we collectively pretend to be shocked for a short moment and then we go on with our lives and forget all about it. Then the next mass murder happens as it always has and always will and - well, rinse, repeat.

Tangible action occurs only if the incident is carried out by people claiming to belong to a certain faith. Otherwise, it's just Americans killing each other which happens thousands of times each and every year. We're not doing anything about that either.

[Boiler 43,397]

I can think of another flag that has more blood on it.

[JohnR! 5,495]

Here is another interesting article that puts the confederate flag in a more appropriate light.

Confederate battle flag, like Nazi swastika, is offensive emblem of hateful cause

Hubert Wayne Cash, 65, a Navy veteran and retired phone company worker, spent an hour at his home Tuesday explaining why he allowed the recent erection of a giant Confederate battle flag in his wooded back yard north of Fredericksburg overlooking busy Interstate 95.

“I’ve got 50 ancestors who fought in the Civil War,” Cash said. “I honor their heritage.”

Lights are being installed so the provocative banner will be visible at night. Cash said he leased the ground at a token price to the Virginia Flaggers, who share his sympathies for Southern secession, so the flag can fly “for at least 100 years.

The gray-bearded Cash was gracious and thoughtful. I applaud his willingness to answer skeptical questions from an incorrigibly pro-Yankee news columnist.

But I still think Cash and his allies are wrong to display the flag. It’s the principal emblem today of a hateful cause — the protection of slavery — from which it cannot be divorced.

Germans don’t use Nazi swastika flags to honor their dead from World War II. The same logic applies to the Confederacy, even if the Nazis’ sins were worse than those of Jefferson Davis and company.

Of course, the United States can’t ban the Rebel banner outright, as German law prohibits the display of swastikas. The First Amendment protects freedom of speech.

But the public can and should try to shame the Confederacy fan club into scrapping the emblem of a wicked purpose and leaving it to be displayed only in museums and history books.

There are plenty of other ways to commemorate one’s Rebel ancestors. What about plaques, flowers or the Virginia state flag? The Confederacy was big on states’ rights.

The flag on Cash’s property in southern Stafford County drew objections from the local NAACP and several people whom I interviewed at a nearby convenience store.

“I don’t think it’s a good idea,” Wayne Samuel, 61, said. “It could be encouraging hatred.”

source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/confederate-battle-flag-like-nazi-swastika-is-offensive-emblem-of-hateful-cause/2014/08/06/b1321d22-1da7-11e4-ae54-0cfe1f974f8a_story.html

Edited June 20, 2015 by JohnR!

[Janelle2002 3,865]

Just because someone poses with the confederate flag doesn't mean anything.

[VOL 425]

The chick in the orange has some nice lungs on her..........

[We Keep Receipts 9,238]

Spoken like a true lib from California, where it's the land of fruits and nuts. It always some west coast yankee or northern yankee crying about the Confederate Flag or a black person.... Boo Hoo Hoo

You take a trip to the Texas Capital we have a nice statue to honor the Confederate, and I am going to assume many other state capitols are the same way...

I don't know if you realize this, but I'll be the one to break it to you. The South lost.

As far as tangible actions resulting from this mass murder are concerned, I expect absolutely nothing to happen. The story will be out of the news cycle soon enough and then it will be like nothing ever happened. It's how things go in America. It's how we wend t about and eventually forgot about Sandy Hook, Ft. Hood, Tucson, Aurora, the list goes on and on and on. Bottom line, we collectively pretend to be shocked for a short moment and then we go on with our lives and forget all about it. Then the next mass murder happens as it always has and always will and - well, rinse, repeat.

Tangible action occurs only if the incident is carried out by people claiming to belong to a certain faith. Otherwise, it's just Americans killing each other which happens thousands of times each and every year. We're not doing anything about that either.

And that's the scary part. It's become an acceptable price to pay for having access to guns. Billions of dollars to watch dudes in mosques but when it's one of us, it's oh well, glad I still got my gun.

The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas. A society that lives in almost perfection. The price of this? One child must live in absolute misery and torture. That's what we've become, we sacrifice innocent lives just to we can go to the airport with an AR-15 with a 100 round drum, or to the JC Penny with one on your back, or go grocery shopping. And it's shameful.

[Sousuke 1,214]

I think we can respect the 1st Amendment and still have a discussion about keeping the late confederate flag out of government institutions.

Besides there are other flags that represent southern pride that don't have the same connotation. Here is an example - the Moultrie Flag (one of my favs btw).

[CarlosAndSveta 808]

Quote from Texas Capital Confederate Monumnet

DIED

FOR STATES RIGHTS GUARANTEED UNDER THE CONSTITUTION

THE PEOPLE OF THE SOUTH, ANIMATED BY THE SPIRIT OF 1776, TO PRESERVE THEIR RIGHTS, WITHDREW FROM THE FEDERAL COMPACT IN 1861. THE NORTH RESORTED TO COERCION.

THE SOUTH, AGAINST OVERWHELMING NUMBERS AND RESOURCES,

FOUGHT UNTIL EXHAUSTED.

DURING THE WAR THERE WERE TWENTY TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY SEVEN ENGAGEMENTS.

IN EIGHTEEN HUNDRED AND EIGHTY TWO OF THESE, AT LEAST ONE REGIMENT TOOK PART.

NUMBER OF MEN ENLISTED:

CONFEDERATE ARMIES 600,000; FEDERAL ARMIES 2,859,132

LOSSES FROM ALL CAUSES:

CONFEDERATE, 437,000; FEDERAL, 485,216

That monument ignores the real reason for secession: the right to have slaves.

http://www.livescience.com/13673-civil-war-anniversary-myths.html

One hundred and fifty years after the Civil War began, its echoes are still felt across the United States in lingering divisions between North and South, in debates over the flying of the Confederate flag, and even in arguments over the basic causes of the conflict. Myths both big and small persist about the bloodiest conflict in American history.

Here are a few:

Myth #1: The Civil War wasn't about slavery.

The most widespread myth is also the most basic. Across America, 60 percent to 75 percent of high-school history teachers believe and teach that the South seceded for state's rights, said Jim Loewen, author of "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong" (Touchstone, 1996) and co-editor of "The Confederate and Neo-Confederate Reader: The 'Great Truth' about the 'Lost Cause'" (University Press of Mississippi, 2010).

"It's complete B.S.," Loewen told LiveScience. "And by B.S., I mean 'bad scholarship.'"

In fact, Loewen said, the original documents of the Confederacy show quite clearly that the war was based on one thing: slavery. For example, in its declaration of secession, Mississippi explained, "Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery — the greatest material interest of the world … a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization." In its declaration of secession, South Carolina actually comes out against the rights of states to make their own laws — at least when those laws conflict with slaveholding. "In the State of New Yorkeven the right of transit for a slave has been denied by her tribunals," the document reads. The right of transit, Loewen said, was the right of slaveholders to bring their slaves along with them on trips to non-slaveholding states.

In its justification of secession, Texas sums up its view of a union built upon slavery: "We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable."

The myth that the war was not about slavery seems to be a self-protective one for many people, said Stan Deaton, the senior historian at the Georgia Historical Society.

"People think that somehow it demonizes their ancestors," to have fought for slavery, Deaton told LiveScience. But the people fighting at the time were very much aware of what was at stake, Deaton said.

"[Defining the war] is our problem," he said. "I don't think it was theirs."