Obama Executive Privilege Asserted Over Fast And Furious Documents

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I hope there's an ESL class in your neighborhood. The guy shut up and invoked executive privilege.

Go ahead and believe in whatever conspiracy theories you want. That doesn't change the facts. It seems that Right Wingers are never interested in the actual truth, just their own version of it. This is the era of truthiness.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Mister Fancypants

[Karee 4,189]

Go ahead and believe in whatever conspiracy theories you want. That doesn't change the facts. It seems that Right Wingers are never interested in the actual truth, just their own version of it. This is the era of truthiness.

The same can be said about the left. There's a reason they have all been banished to CurrentTV. Keep blaming Bush. That record has played over and over.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Uh-oh....more truth, even from one of Issa's own witnesses:

Issa-Led Hearing Inadvertently Highlights The Need For Tougher Gun Control

esterday, House Oversight and Government Reform Committee chairman and NRA sweetheart Darrell Issa (R-CA) held a hearing aimed at pushing the ongoing GOP-led congressional investigation into the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives' (ATF) deadly "gunrunner" scandal. Yet, when asked about what allowed the ill-fated project to be implemented, Issa's own witness — ATF agent Peter Forcelli — ended up pointing to the structural deficiencies that the NRA-backed GOP has fought to keep in place. In one instance, Forcelli argued in favor of tougher gun laws:

REP. CAROLYN MALONEY (D): District court judges view these [straw purchase] prosecutions as mere paper violations. Have you heard this criticism before?

FORCELLI:

I have and I agree with it. I think that perhaps a mandatory minimum one year sentence might deter an individual from buying a gun.

Some people view this as no more consequential than doing 65 in a 55.

In another, Forcelli admitted that his agency simply doesn't have the resources it needs to be effective:

REP. GERALD CONNELLY (D-VA): Do you really have the resources you need to do your job?

FORCELLI: It's amazing, sir, that you ask me that… [...] I have less than 100 agents assigned to the entire State of Arizona, that's 114,006 square miles.

So do we have the resources, no we don't. We desperately need them.

Issa jumped in to remind Forcelli that his assessment fell "outside the scope" of the hearing and "would not be considered valid testimony."

Issa's hearings on the gunrunner operation come just a few months after the NRA

requested "expedited" hearings

on the issue, in hopes that the it would reportedly "help kill a request from federal regulators for more authority to track gun purchases in the southern border states." This past May, at the NRA's annual convention, the powerful gun lobby group called for the

resignation of Attorney General Eric Holder

over the ATF operation.

Ironically, the NRA lobby itself has been blamed for

weakening the ATF

and rendering it leaderless since 2006. "The gun lobby has consistently outmaneuvered and hemmed in ATF, using political muscle to intimidate lawmakers and erect barriers to tougher gun laws," reported the Washington Post. "Over nearly four decades, the NRA has wielded remarkable influence over Congress, persuading lawmakers to curb ATF's budget and mission and to call agency officials to account at oversight hearings."

Rather than further debilitating the agency, Democrats have

promoted

the strengthening of "toothless" U.S. gun laws

in conjunction

with a probe into the ATF's gunrunner activities.

http://thinkprogress...-atf-gunrunner/

Edited June 24, 2012 by Mister Fancypants

[Karee 4,189]

Uh-oh....more truth, even from one of Issa's own witnesses:

http://thinkprogress...-atf-gunrunner/

LOL Thinkprogress.com you crack me up!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The same can be said about the left. There's a reason they have all been banished to CurrentTV. Keep blaming Bush. That record has played over and over.

Yeah, right. The Left was wrong about the Iran Contra Scandal, wrong about the Bush Adminitration's case for invading Iraq, wrong about how deregulation led to the Recession, wrong about Social Security and Medicare. Hell, us Lefties are just clueless about the truth.

[Karee 4,189]

Yeah, right. The Left was wrong about the Iran Contra Scandal, wrong about the Bush Adminitration's case for invading Iraq, wrong about how deregulation led to the Recession, wrong about Social Security and Medicare. Hell, us Lefties are just clueless about the truth.

You're right. They're too busy getting bl0w jobs from interns to make any policy.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

LOL Thinkprogress.com you crack me up!

Now you're just being blinded by your own ideological ignorance. All of that was quoted transcripts, but here's the actual video:

All you're doing is showing that you aren't really interested in the truth, just one that fits your ideology.

You're right. They're too busy getting bl0w jobs from interns to make any policy.

If that's all you Right Wingers got as a comeback, you really are desperate to claim stake on knowing the truth. Pathetic, really.

[Karee 4,189]

Now you're just being blinded by your own ideological ignorance. All of that was quoted transcripts, but here's the actual video:

All you're doing is showing that you aren't really interested in the truth, just one that fits your ideology.

If that's all you Right Wingers got as a comeback, you really are desperate to claim stake on knowing the truth. Pathetic, really.

Once again. I'm not right wing. I hate them all equally. You're problem is you think this guy is gonna make your life better. He's not.

[Karee 4,189]

You wanna talk about something substantive? Why is my job being shipped to India? H1B visas should be stopped. Me and you getting in a pissing match does nothing. I was in Delhi a few years ago and my AMEX card wouldn't work. I called the 800 number and I got a girl down the street in Delhi. Obama needs to be stopped. I personally find it offensive that I went through the process LEGALLY, and this nut is giving people a free ride. Everyone on this website should be pi$$ed about that.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

You wanna talk about something substantive? Why is my job being shipped to India? H1B visas should be stopped. Me and you getting in a pissing match does nothing. I was in Delhi a few years ago and my AMEX card wouldn't work. I called the 800 number and I got a girl down the street in Delhi. Obama needs to be stopped. I personally find it offensive that I went through the process LEGALLY, and this nut is giving people a free ride. Everyone on this website should be pi$$ed about that.

:thumbs: :thumbs:

[Leatherneck 693]

So you agree that access to guns leads to more crime? Because the answer to that question is at the heart of this whole argument and why the NRA has lobbied hard and has lined the pockets of politicians in Washington to cripple the ATF's authority over regulating gun sales.

No I do not! Access to guns by criminals, those that will strictly use them for the sole purpose of murder, robbery and to commit other crimes. You can't see how guns in the hands of law abiding citizens is different from when criminals possess them? I'm sure you can -- you have a different agenda.

This is about Eric Holder and who made the asinine decision to put thousands of firearms in the hands of criminals, this has zero to do with the NRA, absolutely zero.

[Bad_Daddy 2,209]

http://news.yahoo.com/darrell-issa-tougher-gun-laws-may-aim-fast-173950323--abc-news-politics.html

Darrell Issa: Tougher Gun Laws May Have Been Aim of 'Fast and Furious'

By Jake Tapper | ABC OTUS News – 5 hrs ago

This morning on "This Week," Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., continued pressing a conspiracy theory that the botched "Fast and Furious" operation could have been part of a larger plan by the Obama administration to push through tougher gun laws in the United States. But Issa had no firm evidence to back the claim, and said he could not be certain that gun control efforts were ever an original aim of sending guns across the border.

"Here's the real answer as to gun control. We have e-mail from people involved in this that are talking about using what they're finding here to support the - basically assault weapons ban or greater reporting. So chicken or egg? We don't know which came first; we probably never will," Issa said this morning on "This Week." "We do know that during this - this 'Fast and Furious' operation, there were e-mails in which they're saying we can use this as part of additional reporting or things like assault weapons ban. So the people involved saw the benefit of what - what they were gathering. Whether or not that was their original purpose, we probably will never know."

Issa's response came after I challenged him on comments he made in April at an NRA convention to NRA News' "Cam & Company" program, where he said, "Could it be that what they really were thinking of was in fact to use this walking of guns in order to promote an assault weapons ban? Many think so. And they haven't come up with an explanation that would cause any of us not to agree."

Issa's comments in full are below.

TAPPER: You really think that there's a possibility that they were sending guns across the border not because they were trying to get people in the Mexican drug cartels, not because they were trying to figure out drug - I mean, gun trafficking, but because they were trying to push gun control?

ISSA: Two things quickly. First of all, this was so flawed that you can't believe they expected to actually get criminal prosecutions as a result of it. So the level of flaw - flaw - flaw, if that's a word, here is huge.

But here's the real answer as to gun control. We have e-mail from people involved in this that are talking about using what they're finding here to support the - basically assault weapons ban or greater reporting.

So chicken or egg? We don't know which came first; we probably never will. We do know that during this - this Fast and Furious operation, there were e-mails in which they're saying we can use this as part of additional reporting or things like assault weapons ban. So the people involved saw the benefit of what - what they were gathering. Whether or not that was their original purpose, we probably will never know.

And I - and I take people at their word that this started off in some way as an idea where they could get good information, they could, in fact, roll up bad guys. But after it was out of control and people are saying, we're letting too many guns walk, those kinds of e-mails occurred, we - we have people who also were being opportunists.

And, remember, Eric Holder issued a four-state reporting for long rifles and used what he had had here. Right in the middle of the scandal, he issues that for four states. They never needed this information. They never needed the reporting to get this information. These federally licensed gun dealers came to ATF and told them they had straw-buyers, told them they had suspicious buyers, and turned them on to the very people. And one of these people bought over 700 weapons, just one straw-buyer.

So it's very clear the system was working, where ATF was getting information voluntarily from licensed gun dealers. They don't need the additional reporting, but they got it anyway, and they used gun violence to the border and this operation as part of it. So I think when you look at the chicken or egg, there's proof that they certainly were opportunist.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Bad_Daddy

[CarlosAndSveta 808]

Stephen Colbert: Thinking About 'Fast and Furious' Makes Me 'Quickly Angry'

Issa Admits No Evidence White House Involved in Fast and Furious

Edited June 24, 2012 by CarlosAndSveta

[Karee 4,189]

####### Kip? Facts aren't allowed here.

[Leatherneck 693]

<b>

http://www.rightwing...k-2nd-amendment

Conspiracy theory? Not even close! From CBS News, hardly a right wing news conduit.

December 7, 2011 1:44 PM

Documents: ATF used "Fast and Furious" to make the case for gun regulations (Credit: CBS) Documents obtained by CBS News show that the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) discussed using their covert operation "Fast and Furious" to argue for controversial new rules about gun sales.

PICTURES: ATF "Gunwalking" scandal timeline In Fast and Furious, ATF secretly encouraged gun dealers to sell to suspected traffickers for Mexican drug cartels to go after the "big fish." But ATF whistleblowers told CBS News and Congress it was a dangerous practice called "gunwalking," and it put thousands of weapons on the street. Many were used in violent crimes in Mexico. Two were found at the murder scene of a U.S. Border Patrol agent.

ATF officials didn't intend to publicly disclose their own role in letting Mexican cartels obtain the weapons, but emails show they discussed using the sales, including sales encouraged by ATF, to justify a new gun regulation called "Demand Letter 3". That would require some U.S. gun shops to report the sale of multiple rifles or "long guns." Demand Letter 3 was so named because it would be the third ATF program demanding gun dealers report tracing information.

On July 14, 2010 after ATF headquarters in Washington D.C. received an update on Fast and Furious, ATF Field Ops Assistant Director Mark Chait emailed Bill Newell, ATF's Phoenix Special Agent in Charge of Fast and Furious:

"Bill - can you see if these guns were all purchased from the same (licensed gun dealer) and at one time. We are looking at anecdotal cases to support a demand letter on long gun multiple sales. Thanks."

More Fast and Furious coverage:

Memos contradict Holder on Fast and Furious

Agent: I was ordered to let guns "walk" into Mexico

Gunwalking scandal uncovered at ATF On Jan. 4, 2011, as ATF prepared a press conference to announce arrests in Fast and Furious, Newell saw it as "(A)nother time to address Multiple Sale on Long Guns issue." And a day after the press conference, Chait emailed Newell: "Bill--well done yesterday... (I)n light of our request for Demand letter 3, this case could be a strong supporting factor if we can determine how many multiple sales of long guns occurred during the course of this case."

This revelation angers gun rights advocates. Larry Keane, a spokesman for National Shooting Sports Foundation, a gun industry trade group, calls the discussion of Fast and Furious to argue for Demand Letter 3 "disappointing and ironic." Keane says it's "deeply troubling" if sales made by gun dealers "voluntarily cooperating with ATF's flawed 'Operation Fast & Furious' were going to be used by some individuals within ATF to justify imposing a multiple sales reporting requirement for rifles."

The Gun Dealers' Quandary

Several gun dealers who cooperated with ATF told CBS News and Congressional investigators they only went through with suspicious sales because ATF asked them to.

Sometimes it was against the gun dealer's own best judgment.

Read the email

In April, 2010 a licensed gun dealer cooperating with ATF was increasingly concerned about selling so many guns. "We just want to make sure we are cooperating with ATF and that we are not viewed as selling to the bad guys," writes the gun dealer to ATF Phoenix officials, "(W)e were hoping to put together something like a letter of understanding to alleviate concerns of some type of recourse against us down the road for selling these items."

Read the email

ATF's group supervisor on Fast and Furious David Voth assures the gun dealer there's nothing to worry about. "We (ATF) are continually monitoring these suspects using a variety of investigative techniques which I cannot go into detail."

Two months later, the same gun dealer grew more agitated.

"I wanted to make sure that none of the firearms that were sold per our conversation with you and various ATF agents could or would ever end up south of the border or in the hands of the bad guys. I guess I am looking for a bit of reassurance that the guns are not getting south or in the wrong hands...I want to help ATF with its investigation but not at the risk of agents (sic) safety because I have some very close friends that are US Border Patrol agents in southern AZ as well as my concern for all the agents (sic) safety that protect our country."

"It's like ATF created or added to the problem so they could be the solution to it and pat themselves on the back," says one law enforcement source familiar with the facts. "It's a circular way of thinking."

The Justice Department and ATF declined to comment. ATF officials mentioned in this report did not respond to requests from CBS News to speak with them.

The "Demand Letter 3" Debate

The two sides in the gun debate have long clashed over whether gun dealers should have to report multiple rifle sales. On one side, ATF officials argue that a large number of semi-automatic, high-caliber rifles from the U.S. are being used by violent cartels in Mexico. They believe more reporting requirements would help ATF crack down. On the other side, gun rights advocates say that's unconstitutional, and would not make a difference in Mexican cartel crimes.

Two earlier Demand Letters were initiated in 2000 and affected a relatively small number of gun shops. Demand Letter 3 was to be much more sweeping, affecting 8,500 firearms dealers in four southwest border states: Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas. ATF chose those states because they "have a significant number of crime guns traced back to them from Mexico." The reporting requirements were to apply if a gun dealer sells two or more long guns to a single person within five business days, and only if the guns are semi-automatic, greater than .22 caliber and can be fitted with a detachable magazine.

On April 25, 2011, ATF announced plans to implement Demand Letter 3. The National Shooting Sports Foundation is suing the ATF to stop the new rules. It calls the regulation an illegal attempt to enforce a law Congress never passed. ATF counters that it has reasonably targeted guns used most often to "commit violent crimes in Mexico, especially by drug gangs."

Reaction </b>

Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, is investigating Fast and Furious, as well as the alleged use of the case to advance gun regulations. "There's plenty of evidence showing that this administration planned to use the tragedies of Fast and Furious as rationale to further their goals of a long gun reporting requirement. But, we've learned from our investigation that reporting multiple long gun sales would do nothing to stop the flow of firearms to known straw purchasers because many Federal Firearms Dealers are already voluntarily reporting suspicious transactions. It's pretty clear that the problem isn't lack of burdensome reporting requirements."

On July 12, 2011, Sen. Grassley and Rep. Darrell Issa, R-Calif., wrote Attorney General Eric Holder, whose Justice Department oversees ATF. They asked Holder whether officials in his agency discussed how "Fast and Furious could be used to justify additional regulatory authorities." So far, they have not received a response. CBS News asked the Justice Department for comment and context on ATF emails about Fast and Furious and Demand Letter 3, but officials declined to speak with us.

"In light of the evidence, the Justice Department's refusal to answer questions about the role Operation Fast and Furious was supposed to play in advancing new firearms regulations is simply unacceptable," Rep. Issa told CBS News.

Link

• Sharyl Attkisson Sharyl Attkisson is a CBS News investigative correspondent based in Washington. All of her stories, videos and blogs are available here.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Leatherneck