Questions regarding good moral character, etc. with regards to N-400

[mickeysdouble 0]

Greetings,

I have been a poster here before and the site was very helpful during the initial journey from K1 up to removal of conditions for my fiancee/spouse from Thailand.

Now I need some help.

My spouse wishes to apply for citizenship, however, she has done things in the past few years that IMHO should deny her the right to be a U.S. citizen.

Namely:

1. She abandoned me and our child while I was recovering from a serious car accident. During that time she moved away to another state, got a job, and did not support us during that time. I have emails from her stating that she won't send us money and that I should consider selling my vehicle to pay for rent and eat.

2. During the time away she engaged in either prostitution or adultery. I say prostitution because her bank records and spending habits were quite in excess to what she earned from her job.

3. Proof of #2 aside from the extra financial gain came from becoming pregnant while still married to me and during the time away. She ended up having an abortion. (It would have been impossible for the child to be mine).

4. Even now, while I await a decision about SSDI, she continues to work and does nothing to support me or our son.

5. She conspired with her brother (also an LPR) to bring a family member here to the USA in violation of immigration laws (the plan was to "jump" the sister...i.e. get a tourist visa, overstay, and find someone here to marry the sister. The brother is another issue and he deserves to be deported too).

6. She has stated on many occasion that the only reason why she married me was to get a green card and citizenship.

I have concrete proof of everything I have listed. When I found out about the possible immigration fraud I promptly notified the embassy in Bangkok. The visa unit there subsequently denied the application for the sister. Does anyone think this will be part of my spouse's and brother-in-law's record here?

Question: do I submit this to USCIS; is there another channel to go through; should I wait for her to file and then submit the evidence? Can a USC spouse demand/request to be part of the interview for the N-400?

We are technically married now but the marriage was destroyed by her actions. There is no possibility of forgiveness here and I think she should be removed from the country. She has done nothing to help raise our son and during any time that she has worked she has never contributed to the rent, insurance, electric bills, food, etc.

I really need to know what to do here. My son is old enough now where we don't need or want her around (my son hates her). I simply cannot allow someone to come to my country and spit on the law in this way, and, I need to know how to handle it. She's just too dumb to fill out the N-400 for herself so I was thinking of having her fill it out, sign it, then include all the evidence I have contrary to the "No" answers she's certain to give (therefore causing here to commit perjury).

How would you handle this?

Thanks in advance.

Edited December 6, 2011 by mickeysdouble

[Anh map 2,098]

Report your evidence to ICE (see contact info at the bottom of any VJ page), divorce, and move on.

[Inky 1,110]

VisaJourney.com recommends that if any member or user knows directly of someone involved in fraudulent or illegal activity, that they report such activity directly to the Department of Homeland Security, Immigration and Customs Enforcement. You can contact ICE via email at Immigration.Reply@dhs.gov or you can telephone ICE at 1-866-347-2423.

[rin and john 71]

Divorce her and move on unless you can "directly" prove fraud. IF not, then it is to your benefit for her to become a USC as it ends the I-864.

[mickeysdouble 0]

Divorce her and move on unless you can "directly" prove fraud. IF not, then it is to your benefit for her to become a USC as it ends the I-864.

The I-864 also gets terminated upon deportation.

Divorce? Definitely. This has by far been the worst experience of my life.

Becoming a USC is a privilege and if I allow her to become one it not only rewards poor behavior but makes a mockery of those who truly deserve it.

If I could not prove it then I would not have posed the question.

I had not thought about ICE with regards to this one; in the past I have called them with regards to about a dozen illegal Thais that I came across so I guess that's the route I'll take with this one as well.

Does ICE coordinate with USCIS in case she disappears again and tries to apply for citizenship?

Lucky my son was born here so I don't have to deal with the headache of dual citizenship issues with him. The sooner this is resolved the less I have to worry about her or her brother kidnapping him and whisking him off to live on a rice farm.

Now I understand why there's a huge percentage of marriages with Thais that fail. So far I have not known anyone to last with one.

[Exasperated 5]

The I-864 also gets terminated upon deportation.

However, even if you succeed in stopping her from getting citizenship, that doesn't mean that she'll necessarily be deported. And then you would be in the awkward situation of still being bound by the I-864. You'd need to prove that she obtained the green card fraudulently. You say you have proof, but is this proof of a deportable offense or proof that she's not very nice? Even if you can prove that she stated that she married you only for the green card (time stamped recordings? emails?), that doesn't necessarily constitute proof that she actually did so - a lot of things can be said in the heat of an argument, and she could claim she simply said this to hurt you.

Being malicious and an unpleasant and selfish person in general is not necessarily an immigration crime, nor a sign that the marriage was not originally in good faith. Neither is being a financially irresponsible leech. Plenty of American women (and men) share the same traits, and in those instances, one doesn't have the option of getting them "shipped out" of the US.

Now I understand why there's a huge percentage of marriages with Thais that fail. So far I have not known anyone to last with one.

Bottom line is: you have to make sure to really know the person - Thai or not - before you sign a document as important as the I-864 and, even moreso, have a child with them.

[RS232 0]

I'm sorry about what happened to you. honestly it's hard for a judge to believe that your son (I guess around 5 years old) hates his mother. So make sure court doesn't let his mother to keep your son in case she stays in USA and her financial situation is better than you.

[Karee 4,189]

Now I understand why there's a huge percentage of marriages with Thais that fail. So far I have not known anyone to last with one.

I've been married for 5 years now, and together for almost 7. I lived with her for awhile in Bangkok as well. Maybe that's the difference.

That said, I've seen some real horror stories. Some of the girls will string along 5 different guys while collecting money from all at them at the same time. Also, I've seen a few here on VJ that would collect money all the way up to the interview and then bail.

I guess there's scammers everywhere, but it defenitely seemed more prevalent to me in Thailand, especially Bangkok. Not sure whre you met her, but meeting in a bar is not a good start.

Edited December 6, 2011 by Karee

[mickeysdouble 0]

For the record I never met her in a bar. I know many of the Thais meet Americans in this way. I have never ever been to a bar in search of the kinds of trashy women who work and hang out there. I met this one during a trip to Hong Kong for my employer many years ago.

If anyone has ever read the book "A Long Way to Go for A Date" I suggest you read it before thinking about going to either Thailand or the Philippines to bring a woman back to the States. It's about a Canadian's story and someone much older than myself. My story turns out almost exactly like that one (except that when I met mine it wasn't originally in Thailand).

Among the other things listed I have caught her joining several Thai-Farang websites (like Thaikisses) due to my installation of keyloggers on my computer when I started suspecting things weren't right. There were emails with people in Germany, etc. with her pretending not to be married in order to immigrate there.

Aside from submitting my own testimony under oath I can provide the emails (all emails contain date/time stamps along with originating IP addresses of the computer) which show a pattern of trying to go to some country and marry in order to get immigration benefits. This is how I established the evidence of her being away from my son and I along with the time frames to prove that her getting pregant, refusing to help us, etc. took place between the time she ran away and the time she got the abortion (which I obtained a copy for evidence).

I think I have enough proof to nail her. Even if they don't deport her for any of the things she's done wrong (the assisting someone to come here illegally has to be the worst one as far as applying for citizenship) the green card expires at some point at which being here illegally is definitely a deportable offense. And if I can successfully annul the marriage then the conditions upon which the green card were obtained would have to be fraudulent if the marriage were fraudulent.

a vi

Should be interesting to see how (and if) she can fight this.

Anyways the biggest clarification I wanted was to see if refusing to support myself or my son while she was away having fun and getting pregnant were indeed a violation of 8 CFR 316.10(b)(3)(i):

(3) Unless the applicant establishes extenuating circumstances, the applicant shall be found to lack good moral character if, during the statutory period, the applicant:

(i) Willfully failed or refused to support dependents;

(ii) Had an extramarital affair which tended to destroy an existing marriage; or

(iii) Committed unlawful acts that adversely reflect upon the applicant's moral character, or was convicted or imprisoned for such acts, although the acts do not fall within the purview of Sec.316.10(b)(1) or (2).

I know it applies to alimony and child support but does it apply to an applicant who is married, working, with a disabled spouse who refuses to pay for the rent, power, etc. during that time?

[mickeysdouble 0]

I'm sorry about what happened to you. honestly it's hard for a judge to believe that your son (I guess around 5 years old) hates his mother. So make sure court doesn't let his mother to keep your son in case she stays in USA and her financial situation is better than you.

The interactions between parents and their children are fairly obvious. The mother would rather spend her days looking at lakorn on her laptop rather than doing anything for her son. My son is quite clear when he doesn't want to be with her; the interaction of running away from her, etc. is clear. I think a demonstration in court would show the judge who is the better parent and who the child prefers.

Given that the same mother has left a child behind in Thailand for the better part of 13 out of her 15 years of life I think the issue is quite clear and apparently is a symptom of the breakdown in Thai society (all this I have learned, unfortunately, since getting married). The mother would rather work and have fun and spend all the money on herself rather than help the immiediate family (she actually doesn't even send money back to Thailand either). This is one of the things I read most about characteristics of former bargirls and I greatly suspect that mine was one at some point (which would be another lie on the original immigration papers because that's an offense which automatically results in a denial).

Anyways I think I found my answer. I was thinking to make a visit downtown to USCIS but apparently ICE is the way to go with this.

[mickeysdouble 0]

It appears that lying or concealing a material fact on the N-400 is indeed in itself a deportable offense. Yes or no?

If she were to answer questions N-400 10 (d) 22-24 in the negative and I could prove otherwise it wouldn't look good at all for her.

[Jupiter07 12]

I don't have an answer to the questions but am certainly interested in how this turns out. Keep us posted. Sad situation...

[oscar12 23]

Well you had made the mistake initally by not knowing her too well befor getting married to her.Right now,i think you should just focus on the child you had and give him or her the best and and not let this worry you so much becouse there is little or nothing you can do at this point

I said this becouse your story showed that she is now a permanent residence with no conditions,meaning that she have her 10 years greencard ,There is less or even nothing you can do about that at thispoint....Beisdes she has the right to divorce you if she feels the marriage is not working out for her.Moreso, Even if you want to go on with the issue of her not been a citizen,How well can you prove that to USCIS and the immigration Judge that she didnt actually marry you for love,Were you said you both had a baby together and That means maybe she was in love with you and maybe things didnt fall the way she wanted,she decided to move on with her life.....People get divorce everyday becouse of one thing or the other and am sorry if yours fail for any reason dosent really mean she didnt loved you at the beginning and wants out becouse she feel she can do better than you......Is just nothing you can do to prove this at this point....... Besides She can choose not to applyfor Citizenship and that wont even affect her in anyway....Been a US citizen is not a must,Is by choice,As far as you are a greencard holder with no condition....The person has the legal right to live here as long as he or she wants becouse i myself know alot of people that are permanent residence for over 20 years and still live and work legally,All they do is renew there greencard at every 10 years piror to the expiration.......So,She just need to keep renewing it every 10 years even if she is still married or not married to you.....Thank God she didnt even take you to court requesting for child custody...Some people would even do that,You would just have yourself struggling to keep the baby....

So My suggestion is just try to focus on rebuilding your life and giving your baby the best.....And not worry with the immigration. Let God take care of this for you...Maybe is even better for you that way than living with her...Things happen in our life for reasons and for us to learn from it okay...Try to be happy,There is more to life than having this worries....But anyway...Have others advice you more on this....All i said is just a suggestion and am sorry things turn out this way for you....if you search up all my cotents,i know i have talked about this at some point where i was trying to advice on people knowing there spouse very well befor jumping in to immigration issue becouse theere is so much more to marriage than just dating on online and over the mobile...

I hope my great Vj people will learn from people experinece and be more careful...am not saying my marriage is the best but Thank God i married a woman that at some point knows a little bit of my culture piror on us been on the same roof...It help us to adjust to our new life,Change on little ways we can and accept those ones we cant change and learn to live with it....That is just how i see it

Once again,Sorry for the pains okay.i pray you recover sooner.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Oscar12

[mickeysdouble 0]

I did spend plenty of time with her in Thailand before even thinking about getting married. Over a period of 8 months I spent a total of about 4-5 there flying back and forth between LOS and USA. It's easy to fool people, and, God knows how many Americans end up getting married and not knowing much or enough about their spouses before marriage. Sometimes the bad stuff doesn't come out until later.

The difference is.....

...when you marry an American you don't have to necessarily worry about the ex-spouse taking your child overseas to a place when you cannot find the child. By default do you think the Thai government is going to assist a Thai national or a foreigner when it comes to custody issues if the child is physically in Thailand?

That is my main motivation here.

If it were just me alone and this happened I would have refused to cooperate with removing conditions 3-4 years ago. Or she just could just stay here, get divorced, and I'd sue for alimony until my expenses bringing her here were recouped (the argument being that the economic benefits of a green card to someone from the Third World is akin to putting an American spouse through college....the potential for earning more than before is quite great).

Unfortunately my son's birth predated lifting conditions and at that time the really bad stuff wasn't known to me (aside from the "Oh, I just married you to get the green card.") At that time the difficulty of adjusting to life here was my concern...now it's simply refusing to adjust rather that not adjusting (which is another topic of irritation...wanting to come here then refusing to learn English, learn about culture, etc.)

See, the problem is I can prevent him from getting a US Passport by refusing to sign the application and show up in person. That I can easily prevent.

I cannot prevent her from going to the Thai embassy or consulate and getting a Thai passport and her and/or her brother from taking him out of the country on that.

That is my worry and even if I get custody through divorce and a court order and/or a restraining order what is to stop her from taking him abroad against my wishes? The only way to stop it is to tell what I know before/during the N-400 process and hope she gets deported. Hopefully the burden of proof for the N-400 is at least the same or greater for any other step along the way.

Citizenship is a privilege and should be granted to those who deserve it.

I don't choose this path easily and wish I didn't have to, but, we are a nation of rules and laws and if she's going to break the rules then punishment is required.

As things develop I will post results because someday someone else may have a similar situation. I've been searching for weeks about this and it brought me back here to look for answers.

Complicated, sure. But getting pregnant with another person while married to a USC has to be one of the most heinous acts an immigrant can commit against the USC and the very country the immigrant wishes to be part of.

Edited December 7, 2011 by mickeysdouble

[Anh map 2,098]

Again, supply ICE with your evidence. That's all you can do regarding her naturalization.

Contact a qualified family law attorney for the rest.