The wife wants to return to Russia

[SMR 368]

This is a subject that interests my wife and I as well. We have no immediate plans and are still working out the proper opportunity. I have a couple thoughts, some of which have come up in this thread already.

I don't know why there is a perception that drivers do well in Russia or that it is a friendly field for foreigners to enter (I have seen this suggestion in other places than this forum). Drivers don't make that much and I don't really see why an American will have an advantage over Russian drivers. Sure, you may be able to market to tourists. But then you'll need connections and in the end most tourists would be better served by a Russian with some English than an American. Think about it: do you really care if your driver has an accent? If you do really well and work constantly you might end up taking in 30.000p. a month which really isn't much. While English is an asset, it's not like there aren't a lot of people in the big cities that speak English.

When heading to a foreign country to work you have two options: bring a skill that is in short supply locally or be prepared to do the ####### jobs. I assume that ####### jobs aren't an option for most here since that also means ####### pay which is not really much in Russia.

As far as the other option, I have considered three general strategies:

1. As mentioned, you might try to teach English. I recommend trying to get a TEFL certification. See teflcourse.net or eslcafe.com for some more information. I would be careful with this since there are some scams regarding English teachers. On the plus side, you can probably get a company to take care of the visa and such if you commit to work full time.

2. Look for a job in your general field on a Russian job search site. Some good ones are job.ru, rabota.ru, superjob.ru, and zarplata.ru. This strategy requires that you have a good command of Russian, not just for using the site but more importantly for actually being able to do the job. The thing to remember here is that English is an advantage but the key is still being able to do your job.

3. Try to start a business in Russia. You just need a good idea. Ordinarily for a foreigner it would be very difficult. But with a RUB spouse it will be easier since the RUB spouse can actually own the business. The advantage here is that the corporation can then hire you and make the immigration thing a whole lot easier. Obviously, there are tons of details here that need to be worked out.

[AmyWrites 593]

I'm just going to tell you what I know given that I'm a USC and I live in Russia with my SO.

It really depends on the city. I live in Moscow. It's difficult as hell... at first especially, the language is a huge issue; you can't live here with just basic Russian. Well, maybe if you're able to afford to live in an expensive area, but anywhere else, no, you'll NEED Russian, at least intermediate level Russian. Outside of the touristy areas or the center or near MGU, finding people who speak/want to speak English is nearly impossible, so asking someone if they go-vo-reeooo po-anglisky (just mocking my own accent) is usually worthless. Granted, I live in a pretty... ehhh... not so good district.

In terms of cost, I call BS that Moscow is expensive; maybe where I'm from is just more expensive, but almost everything (except the rent, granted) is the same or cheaper than in the US. Of course you'll have to leave the touristy areas, which'll make your life more difficult as you'll need that much more Russian to cope.

I don't want to sound all pessimistic, but it's really difficult to make Russian friends here. The attitude towards foreigners is often (maybe 70% of the time for me) distrust, rudeness, or downright hatred, and a hectic city life doesn't provide much opportunity for socialization anyway. It doesn't matter how good your Russian is, you're not Russian, and you never will be. You will always stand out as a foreigner; sometimes, as a foreigner who's been here for years rather than a tourist, but still not a Russian. That will give you problems in terms of making friends, so if you're a very social type it'll be difficult for you. Outside of my SO's friends who have become my friends, I only have two Russian friends.

Other than that, I love it. The public transport (okay, the metro) is efficient and excellent, I feel very safe here, etc. The only big problem I'd tell anyone who plans on moving here is you NEED Russian. It's not an option. Come here with basic Russian and enroll in some Russian courses, but don't just plan to live here with basic or no Russian all your life.

Edited July 6, 2011 by AmyWrites

[eekee 182]

In terms of cost, I call BS that Moscow is expensive; maybe where I'm from is just more expensive, but almost everything (except the rent, granted) is the same or cheaper than in the US. Of course you'll have to leave the touristy areas, which'll make your life more difficult as you'll need that much more Russian to cope.

I was in Moscow last week and it was like WAAAH WHERE IS ALL MY MONEY GOING H8 U MOSOCW. But I am sure this is just because I had some business to do in the center of the city and my friend was too busy finishing her end of the year academic work to meet me during the day and as a non-native of the city I don't know where to find cheap things. Compared to St. Petersburg, it's expensive; compared to other parts of Russia it's CRAZY expensive. In the US, some things are more expensive, but the salaries match that. In Moscow, I don't know.

I don't want to sound all pessimistic, but it's really difficult to make Russian friends here. The attitude towards foreigners is often (maybe 70% of the time for me) distrust, rudeness, or downright hatred, and a hectic city life doesn't provide much opportunity for socialization anyway. It doesn't matter how good your Russian is, you're not Russian, and you never will be. You will always stand out as a foreigner; sometimes, as a foreigner who's been here for years rather than a tourist, but still not a Russian. That will give you problems in terms of making friends, so if you're a very social type it'll be difficult for you. Outside of my SO's friends who have become my friends, I only have two Russian friends.

Again, perhaps this is a Moscow thing? I mean, I even have friends who sort of identify on the far right side of the spectrum of things and have kind of nationalistic views, and theoretically dislike America very much, but still are always excited to hang out with me and never treat me badly because I am American. But maybe it's because I've lived here a long time and have put together a large network of friends and acquaintances, I don't know. I have FAR more trouble making friends with other foreigners because my Russian friends are so numerous and a bit... exhuberant and frighten the other foreigners away. I may not be Russian, but people consider me enough of a Peterburzhenka that no one cares, I guess.

I think it may be hard for someone older though, as I mentioned before. But you're my age as far as I know, so... I guess Moscow-ОТСТОЙ!!

Edited July 6, 2011 by eekee

[ONA 133]

I don't want to sound all pessimistic, but it's really difficult to make Russian friends here. The attitude towards foreigners is often (maybe 70% of the time for me) distrust, rudeness, or downright hatred, and a hectic city life doesn't provide much opportunity for socialization anyway. It doesn't matter how good your Russian is, you're not Russian, and you never will be. You will always stand out as a foreigner; sometimes, as a foreigner who's been here for years rather than a tourist, but still not a Russian. That will give you problems in terms of making friends, so if you're a very social type it'll be difficult for you. Outside of my SO's friends who have become my friends, I only have two Russian friends.

Nah, it's not about you being a foreigner. The thing is that so many people from Moscow tend to hate anybody, who lives outside of МКАД. I mean I've lived in Russia since I was born, I don't even know how many times I've been to Moscow and I have only one good friend in Moscow... not to mention that this friend is originally from Lviv, Ukraine Well, there are other people I talk to from time to time, but... it's not like having good friends.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Nah, it's not about you being a foreigner. The thing is that so many people from Moscow tend to hate anybody, who lives outside of МКАД. I mean I've lived in Russia since I was born, I don't even know how many times I've been to Moscow and I have only one good friend in Moscow... not to mention that this friend is originally from Lviv, Ukraine Well, there are other people I talk to from time to time, but... it's not like having good friends.

I think judging Russia by Moscow would be lie judging the USA by New York City. My experience was completely opposite. I felt very welcome in Ukraine, even "popular" due to being American. Though most of my friends may not have been what FSI folks really consider "friends" (a very powerful relationship) but I had a lot of acquaitances, particularly once they accepted that I was not insulting them by not getting drunk.

[AmyWrites 593]

Bah, you're all making me regret this moving to Moscow thing

[eekee 182]

Well, I'm sure Moscow has its fans. And if you want to make money, work for a foreign company, pursue journalism, etc., it's certainly the best place in Russia to be. But it's not for me.

I love NYC. I hate Moscow.

[SMR 368]

Well, I'm sure Moscow has its fans. And if you want to make money, work for a foreign company, pursue journalism, etc., it's certainly the best place in Russia to be. But it's not for me.

I love NYC. I hate Moscow.

I really think that NYC is filthy compared to Moscow.

As far as moving back to Russia, I would strongly recommend not doing it until the FSU spouse gets US citizenship. You will probably lose the green card when you move back to Russia. At that point, getting a tourist visa for the FSU spouse may become very difficult. And returning on a spouse visa would be even more complicated than it was the first time because the USC spouse would no longer have domicile in the US. If the FSU spouse has US citizenship, there will be no problems returning. You will have to file a tax return (but you would have to do that anyways, now it will just have to be joint). However, I believe that through various deductions you won't really be paying taxes, just filing tax returns.

[eekee 182]

What difference does it make, which city is cleaner? If I cared about clean, I'd move to Scandinavia. Moscow just has a bad vibe.

You have to pay taxes if you make more than 70,000$/year.

Edited July 7, 2011 by eekee

[ONA 133]

I love NYC. I hate Moscow.

I hate both

I love DC, Kiev and... well... my city. I haven't been to St. Petersburg, but I'm pretty sure I'll love it if I go.

But yeah, every city has its fans - I agree. There are tons of people, who would say that Moscow is the best place in the world etc.

[eekee 182]

I dunno, I think it's just... bizarre. Like if someone vomited up a ton of buildings and just stuck them in random places. There's no order or logic to the way it is designed. I know it's because it's an old city and all, but still.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Well, I'm sure Moscow has its fans. And if you want to make money, work for a foreign company, pursue journalism, etc., it's certainly the best place in Russia to be. But it's not for me.

I love NYC. I hate Moscow.

We just spent 3 days in NYC and Alla says Moscow is better! She was surprised NYC was so dirty. The other big cities we have spent some time in are Montreal, Boston and Chicago. NYC is by far the dirtiest. Also, public transport in NYC is extremely expensive compared to Moscow.

[eekee 182]

Well, yeah, of course public transport is going to be expensive compared to Moscow. It's far cheaper than, say, London, though.

I don't know why people keep on harping on cleanliness like it's the hallmark of a great city. You know when they do "livable cities" lists, and the top cities are always places like Zurich, which I have been to and thought was the most boring place on Earth because it was Sunday and nothing was open except gas stations, which strangely enough all seemed to sell an inordinate amount of porn? "Livability" actually seems to mean "boring factor" of a city, and does not factor in whether you can find something to do at midnight on a Sunday, which to me is what makes a place livable. Anyway, I, personally, don't find cleanliness important in a city. Besides, counting the rats on the tracks of the subway helps to pass the time. One thing I do appreciate about the Russian metro systems is how frequently the trains come.

Moscow is clean, I guess? But the whole time I was there last week I was basically counting down until I could go back home. New York is fun because there's always something to do, even if you don't have money. You can go to one of the greatest art museums in the world for a penny. Like I said before, if you want a clean city, go to Scandinavia. (Where you will also be bored.)

[SMR 368]

Well, yeah, of course public transport is going to be expensive compared to Moscow. It's far cheaper than, say, London, though.

I don't know why people keep on harping on cleanliness like it's the hallmark of a great city. You know when they do "livable cities" lists, and the top cities are always places like Zurich, which I have been to and thought was the most boring place on Earth because it was Sunday and nothing was open except gas stations, which strangely enough all seemed to sell an inordinate amount of porn? "Livability" actually seems to mean "boring factor" of a city, and does not factor in whether you can find something to do at midnight on a Sunday, which to me is what makes a place livable. Anyway, I, personally, don't find cleanliness important in a city. Besides, counting the rats on the tracks of the subway helps to pass the time. One thing I do appreciate about the Russian metro systems is how frequently the trains come.

Moscow is clean, I guess? But the whole time I was there last week I was basically counting down until I could go back home. New York is fun because there's always something to do, even if you don't have money. You can go to one of the greatest art museums in the world for a penny. Like I said before, if you want a clean city, go to Scandinavia. (Where you will also be bored.)

I'm not a huge fan of Moscow either. When I can figure out the job situation, I would prefer to live in St. Petersburg. And you're right that cleanliness is not the top criteria for a city. I guess my problems with NYC are twofold.

1) Ridiculously expensive. To be honest, I haven't been impressed with the street vendors and haven't really found much in the way of good dining. The food is more expensive, portions are smaller, and it really doesn't taste that good. I wasn't impressed with the shopping as it doesn't have much you can't find in most malls in America but it's more expensive. It's possible I just need a local to show me around. But, like you said, the transportation is really expensive. Which leads me to point 2.

2) After spending time on various public transportation systems throughout the world, NYC really has one of the least impressive. It's the most expensive but yet comes quite infrequently. After spending time on the subways in Moscow, St. Pete, and Novosibirsk, I felt like I was in a sewer in the NYC subway. Granted, that isn't a deal killer for me, but it was definitely a let down. I wouldn't have been so upset if I didn't end up waiting 20 minutes or more and have to pay 2-4 times the fare in other cities. I guess more than anything it was a letdown.

In defense of Scandinavian cities, Marina and I vacationed in Helsinki a couple times and really had a rather good time. We do tend to do things in the day and sleep at night. Lots of good ice-skating, skiing, water-parks, restaurants, and I really liked the hotel. And the shopping looked like it would have been decent except that luckily it was Christmas and everything was closed. That could have been some major wallet damage.

[Brother Hesekiel 2,235]

I read this thread with interest for quite a few days now and tried to learn something about the psyche of the Russian people. Now it's becoming painful for me, so before I turn my back on it I'll do what Bob can do so well: chime in, then turn around and leave, finding sanity again.

Ya'll may remember this dude in the woods of . . . was it Oregon or Colorado . . . who was trapped after some really hardcore rock climbing. After being stuck for a day or two, he realized that he had only once choice in order to escape and to survive: cut off his foot with the pocket knife he had.

He did it.

I don't think I would have had the balls to do that. Life is precious and it's probably human nature to do anything to survive, but we're not all cut out for doing things like that to ourselves. In the same category of cutting off one's leg I would put jumping off a train at high speed, laying down on railroad tracks and let the train run over me, or moving to Russia or another sh*thole in the world, if there's any way to avoid it.

So if there's this guy who puts a gun at my head and say: either you jump off this train or you move to Russia, or I'm gonna cut off your balls and then shoot you in the back, it's something to think about. But if my wife wanted to move to Russia, I would wish her farewell and the best of luck for the rest of her natural life. Life it precious, too precious to #### it up like that.

Nothing personal, just my 3 cents.