Church marriage after having K-1 visa in hand

[ryna 132]

Personally, I wouldn't do it. Too large of a risk. All it takes is one CBP agent who doesn't know what is and isn't considered legal in the Ukraine and she'll be back on a plane before you can say "I'll take that visa."

Just my opinion and why we're not even bothering to try a religious-only ceremony outside the U.S. first. There will be plenty of time for that when she's an official LPR.

[payxibka 10,044]

How would the CBP ever know about this?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I respectfully disagree here Gary... even in the USA, if you are not married by a "registered" officiant qualified to perform marriages in that jurisdiction, you are NOT married (unless of course you reside in a a common law jurisdiction, which is not even in play here).... Every "ordained" minister, pastor, priest, etc... must in fact register with the respective state or they cannot perform a "legal" marriage.

If you are married in the Orthodox church in Ukraine and have a certificate attested to by the clergy person empowered to do so by the church, the US will recognize that as a marriage, grant spousal visas, allow filing joint income tax, etc. Registration of officiants is a US or Ukrainian "thing". Which church from which country will the US NOT recognize? The US even recognizes, still, the bizare practice of "common law" marriage. Such does not have to be registered with anyone. Does anyone even imagine what would happen if the US government refused to do so? "We do not recognize Orthodox marriages" I'd love to see that on a denial letter from USCIS. OMG that is like the Soviet Union! And Ukrainian law is, in fact, a holdover from the time when religion was officially illegal.

Also, it is the tradition in Ukraine that the couple is married in the civil ceremony FIRST. Such is not the law, but what church official is going to perform a marriage that is not a marriage? Then what? The couple says they will go to the civil ceremony later? The Orthodox church considers marriage a holy sacrament, one of the most deeply religious functions one performs in life, and will not (generally) perform a marriage that would not be "legal" when the couple stands and walks away. And while you may be able to bribe an official to look the other way on the residency requirements for a marriage license ($100 will turn the trick) you will not be bribing the Orthodox Priest. He doesn't need the money.

I think the OP is going to find it very difficult to find an Orthodox Preist that will perfom a marriage that will not be registered . His question will be..."For what purpose?" To impress the in-laws? The church does not like to be used for that. To make it "OK" to shack up with the girl? Yeah, they are going to go for that. "OK, I will perform a fake marriage so you two can have sex and feel good about it"

The OP has chosen the K-1 visa because it is faster. The spousal visa exists for many reasons, one of them is for people with religious convictions that want to get married in their home church or before leaving their country to join a man and live with him. I can respect people's religious and moral beliefs even though I have none of my own. But this is not about religious and moral beliefs. If it was, they would be married and filing for a CR-1 and waiting the additional time to get the visa.

This is a plain, unadulterated and expressed intent to commit fraud in order to get someone here faster, that is all, and using the Orthodox church for their own personal benefit. He even says they will wait until the visa is in her hand to be sure the fraud is pulled off first. If you are going to do this, at least have the nads to do it now and show them the photos of the church wedding as proof of relationship at your interview. If it isn't legal and wouldn't be a problem, then just tell everyone!

Pay, you disagree with me, respectfully so I might add, but tell the OP not to mention it and not show photos around and not to "flaunt it" Why? If it isn't a legal marriage, then walk right in to the consulate wearing the wedding crowns from the Orhtodox church and thumb your nose at them!(if the church will perform this dog and pony show, they will let you borrow the wedding crowns...why not?)

Everyone here knows what has been proposed is fraud, and wants to find a way to weedle around it. If you think I am wrong...go ahead and prove me wrong.

How would the CBP ever know about this?

Pay. If it isn't a legal marriage, why would it matter? Show up at the POE wearing the wedding dress and say "Look, here is our marriage certificate but it is not legal...see. OK, let her in now"

[Advanced Aardvark 82]

You are correct that the GOVERNMENT of Ukraine does not recognize ANY religious wedding. Absolutely true. However the government of the UNITED STATES recognizes ALL religious ceremonies as a legal marraige. The OP would be able to apply for AND RECEIVE a CR-1 visa based on a Ukrainian church wedding ONLY. If it is VALID to receive a spousal visa, then it is equally as valid to negate a K-1 visa. By the same token, the Ukrainian government does not recognize ANY marriage in the US unless it is registered with ZAGs.

Ukraine also has some strict residency requirements for a marriage. Unlike the US where anyone can get married any time, in Ukraine you must meet residency requirements, though such things can usually be avoided with a bribe.

while it may be true "if no one knows, what difference does it make?" it is a dis-service to the OP to say it is "OK" to do so, it is not.

Mmmmmm...In most US jurisdictions, it is necessary to have a civil marriage license. This license is usually obtained from your local or county government. Religious clergy are permitted to perform marriage ceremonies; however, they also need to complete and file the official marriage license. Sooooooooooo, religious weddings are recognized in the US, but a civil marriage license must be executed too.

I remember laughing about the fact that my marriage license was only $2.00, but the dog license was $8.00 ...

[payxibka 10,044]

please Gary... there is reality and perception of reality.... This question gets asked a thousand times a year on this site... this is about the only thread that posters are saying... OMG.... don't do it.... almost all the other threads say... go for it but understand the risks... as long as it is not a LEGAL marriage and you get LEGALLY married in the USA then go for it.... just don't give the perception of a LEGAL marriage.....

FWIW, ask your wife if a marriage in the Orthodox church is a legal marriage? or does it only occur at ZAGS?

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

You can have as many "ceremonies" as you want... you can only have ONE marriage event... and it must occur in the USA or one of its territories.

Correct. But the legal marriage event should occur FIRST and MUST be in the USA. After that have as many ceremonies as you like. Pay, would you suggest they do this and then tell the consulate? The CBP? Who should they tell, Pay? It is not a legal ceremony, so why not tell everyone?

This SHOULD be an excellent piece of evidence for "proof of ongoing realtionship" for the interview...don't you think? C'mon, much better than emails and skype logs...TONS better. And y'know Kiev is a pretty easy consulate so I am sure they won't care. Agree?

[payxibka 10,044]

Correct. But the legal marriage event should occur FIRST and MUST be in the USA. After that have as many ceremonies as you like. Pay, would you suggest they do this and then tell the consulate? The CBP? Who should they tell, Pay? It is not a legal ceremony, so why not tell everyone?

This SHOULD be an excellent piece of evidence for "proof of ongoing realtionship" for the interview...don't you think?

Nope don't agree...

Birth, Marriage, Divorce and Death Certificates

Available. Unauthenticated and uncertified copies of these documents may be obtained by Ukrainians and foreigners for a nominal fee upon direct application to the ZAHS of the locality where the records originated or through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. See the “General” section above for information on export of available civil documents.

Even the DOS knows these documents need to come from ZAGS

Edited June 24, 2010 by payxibka

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

please Gary... there is reality and perception of reality.... This question gets asked a thousand times a year on this site... this is about the only thread that posters are saying... OMG.... don't do it.... almost all the other threads say... go for it but understand the risks... as long as it is not a LEGAL marriage and you get LEGALLY married in the USA then go for it.... just don't give the perception of a LEGAL marriage.....

FWIW, ask your wife if a marriage in the Orthodox church is a legal marriage? or does it only occur at ZAGS?

Pay, I agree with you it is not a legal marriage in Ukraine and stated so in my first response to you. I know well the rules in Ukraine FOR Ukraine and have been present at several marriages, at both the civil and religious ceremony. I have yet to see one where the church portion was done first, though I am not aware it is a law, more of a church thing. The church likes to have the "final say" so to speak. UKRAINE does not recognize a wedding in the church as legal. The US does.

Yes, this topic gets covered here a lot. My answer has always been the same as it is now. Don't do it. I don;t usually even answer these anymore, the first 2,300 times should be enough, but this one showed up in the Ukraine portal. I hate to see a fellow enthusiast of the finer thingsin life make an error that could be very consequential for very little benefit.

Again, Pay, if I am wrong, then no need to sneak around. Just be up front, use it as evidence of relationship at the interview. Agree?

[payxibka 10,044]

I'll state this again...

Birth, Marriage, Divorce and Death Certificates

Available. Unauthenticated and uncertified copies of these documents may be obtained by Ukrainians and foreigners for a nominal fee upon direct application to the ZAHS of the locality where the records originated or through the Ministry of Foreign Affairs. See the “General” section above for information on export of available civil documents.

Even the DOS knows these documents need to come from ZAGS and not the church

Edited June 24, 2010 by payxibka

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Nope don't agree...

Why not? Even DOS knows the rules, right?

[payxibka 10,044]

Why not? Even DOS knows the rules, right?

Yes they do... see post #24

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

I'll state this again...

Even the DOS knows these documents need to come from ZAGS and not the church

But now tell me why you advised the OP not to flaunt his ceremony and noted that some cases have been denied when the fake marriage WAS flaunted. Why would they deny a visa for a fake marriage? It isn't legal. No problem, right?

[payxibka 10,044]

But now tell me why you advised the OP not to flaunt his ceremony and noted that some cases have been denied when the fake marriage WAS flaunted. Why would they deny a visa for a fake marriage? It isn't legal. No problem, right?

That was in context of the POE because the POE does NOT know what is legal and not legal for all nations in the world.

Edited June 24, 2010 by payxibka

[sachinky 464]

Really not worth the risk. Why not go back after you've filed for AOS and have the GC/AP in hand and have a big blowout? You could just have a civil ceremony in the USA.

I don't know the rules for Ukraine. But the US recognizes any marriage as 'legal' as long as it was done in accordance with the laws of the country in which the wedding took place. Our Ukrainian members will be able to provide more information.

In India, for example, a religious wedding IS a legal marriage. Whether you register it or not. Exchange garlands and take seven rings around the fire--voila, you're married! No court is going to overturn that.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

FWIW, Payxibka is a hugely valuable and knowledgable member of VJ and I respect his opinion very much and he was very helpful to me when I was a noob. I see what he is saying, it is not legal in Ukraine and keep your mouth shut and no one will know the difference and he is most likely 100% correct.

I do not like the idea that is being proposed, I feel it is fraud for selfish purposes, but hey, I am not a judgemental guy. Someone can't wait the extra time to be with their lady love from Ukraine (who can blame them for that?) and they want to keep her and her family happy also (good luck with that, you have never had a Ukrainian MIL )

My suggestion remains the same...don't risk it. I also sincrely doubt you would pull it off and hawould have problems with the church, but i will leave that to you. I respectfully disagree with Payxibka.