Christianity has its nutbags too

[*Robert* 2]

Hmmmm.... now you overlook the argument made earlier, about why have things changed; and the answer given was education. Education is much better now than during the time of the individuals you listed. Biology and genetics, along with archeology and historical geology have caused many beliefs to change.

You avoided Arthur's question. What is your level of education, if you don’t mind sharing?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Hmmmm.... now you overlook the argument made earlier, about why have things changed; and the answer given was education. Education is much better now than during the time of the individuals you listed. Biology and genetics, along with archeology and historical geology have caused many beliefs to change.

You avoided Arthur's question. What is your level of education, if you don’t mind sharing?

I have a BFA in Character Animation...but ...I took a lot of philosophy courses in college. My understanding of religion is my own self studying (and 2 years of parochial school) but also my father is an ordained Deacon in the Catholic Church and he really had a big impact on my understanding of faith.

Education was Fishdude's answer, not mine. I believe that progress occurs through mankind's capacity for enginuity, problem solving, etc. You asked whether we really know for sure that our understandings of today are more enlightened than back then, yes? First, I wouldn't say it's completely true , but there are certain concepts and truths that we have arrived at which we didn't fathom before - such as slavery being immoral or treating women as second class citizens. One of those Truths can be found in the Declaration of Independence ...All men are created equal (whereas men refered to mankind or humankind - not just European males). And it goes on to say that, "We hold these truths to be self evident." We can arrive at certain truths through logic and reason. That doesn't mean that we have more logic than before, but just look at the history of civilization to see how society progressed. An example would be the advent of democracy.

Edited July 27, 2006 by Steven_and_Jinky

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Similarly people from ancient times weren't any less religious (or less intelligent) than they are now.

What is the biggest difference between then and now?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

God did not bring in sickness and suffering and all that other stuff. That was an evil being who did that. Satan brought that all about enticing us with sin thinking we can make it on our own and that we'd all be enlightened by our own understanding.

But your god "knows all, created all, etc" YHVH created Satan. Ergo, YHVH created disease, famine, etc.

God is present in all of creation, but I don't believe that Good and Evil are personified in the physical world. I don't think you could point to a rock and say that rock is evil. It can be used for evil but that doesn't make the rock evil. Through free will, the actions of humankind can result in great suffering, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that Satan is behind diseases. Good and Evil are human concepts and God is way beyond any human concept.

You're not educated, are you?

The most surprising thing about America, is with all the freedom and access to information you could ever want; many of you choose to be ignorant and believe in religion.

Is this a dichotomy, or a conundrum? That in a world with so much stimulus, people suffer from Attention Deficit Disorder.

There's nothing ignorant about believing in religion or having a set of spiritual beliefs. As has been said by others its an extremely personal

Be careful not to confuse fundamentalism (a way of thought) with religion.

Agreed - there's is a big difference between the two!

Fundamentalists are characterised (in general) by poor or sub-standard education, turning to and using religion to fill a deficiency in their lives. Their belief in religion is essentially counterfeit - its not too hard to understand that a person can be deluded into thinking they are a muslim (or indeed a christian) when in fact they are not.

Again it makes you wonder why it is that fundamentalist leaders (e.g. Bin Laden) aren't strapping explosives to themselves and blowing themselves up.

[chri'stina 190]

God did not bring in sickness and suffering and all that other stuff. That was an evil being who did that. Satan brought that all about enticing us with sin thinking we can make it on our own and that we'd all be enlightened by our own understanding.

But your god "knows all, created all, etc" YHVH created Satan. Ergo, YHVH created disease, famine, etc.

God is present in all of creation, but I don't believe that Good and Evil are personified in the physical world. I don't think you could point to a rock and say that rock is evil. It can be used for evil but that doesn't make the rock evil. Through free will, the actions of humankind can result in great suffering, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that Satan is behind diseases. Good and Evil are human concepts and God is way beyond any human concept.

You're not educated, are you?

The most surprising thing about America, is with all the freedom and access to information you could ever want; many of you choose to be ignorant and believe in religion.

Is this a dichotomy, or a conundrum? That in a world with so much stimulus, people suffer from Attention Deficit Disorder.

I remember not long ago Wog, you asked people on VJ to pray for you when you were going through very hard times. I did pray for you, and you seemed very appreciate of everyone's prayers back then. Yes, Mr Atheist believed in prayer during rough times.

The saying is very true that people only want to turn to God when they are in trouble, and forget him during the good times. And you want to criticize those who prayed for you, after YOU asked for the prayer.

Conundrum?

What do you mean?

Unfortunately, you just walked right into that!

He meant that people who tend to be lesser educated tend to be the ones that lean more heavily on religion.

I would actually like to see some numbers concerning that hypothesis. How many people with a BA/S or higher consider themselves strongly religious, as opposed to those with a HS/GED and below?

Honestly that's really silly...

I wish someone would do a study on that. Because the results may be different than expected. Most people know I love C.S. Lewis' works. He was extremely intelligent, a professor at Oxford and Cambridge, well known and respected, and very strong in his faith in God. He was an atheist for many years of his young adult life. But after trying to prove Christianity was dumb and also trying to prove that believing in God was ignorant...he ended up believing it himself with no pressure from anyone else. But instead he himself figured it out. There are many others like him.

I have a BA in Sociology, I skipped 7th grade in middle school because of my ability to learn very fast, so what? Do I get to be called educated now? I intend to get my masters one day. There are many well educated Christians. Education doesn't mean to pretend there is no God.

Edited July 27, 2006 by stina&suj

[incanada1234 0]

Oh my goodness, I canNOT read this thread anymore. The amount of self-righteous posts is starting to make me gag. Before your little fingers start flying across the keyboard in response, I'm NOT saying my posts are much better. But still, I can't take the smug replies of the liberal atheists. Open-minded my @SS.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Honestly that's really silly...

I wish someone would do a study on that. Because the results may be different than expected. Most people know I love C.S. Lewis' works. He was extremely intelligent, a professor at Oxford and Cambridge, well known and respected, and very strong in his faith in God. He was an atheist for many years of his young adult life. But after trying to prove Christianity was dumb and also trying to prove that believing in God was ignorant...he ended up believing it himself with no pressure from anyone else. But instead he himself figured it out. There are many others like him.

I have a BA in Sociology, I skipped 7th grade in middle school because of my ability to learn very fast, so what? Do I get to be called educated now? I intend to get my masters one day. There are many well educated Christians. Education doesn't mean to pretend there is no God.

Agreed. there is no proof of that. Education doesn't preclude someone from having religious, spiritual views. I think the point is getting lost is that its fundamentalists who are broadly characterised by a lack of education.

[incanada1234 0]

Agreed. there is no proof of that. Education doesn't preclude someone from having religious, spiritual views. I think the point is getting lost is that its fundamentalists who are broadly characterised by a lack of education.

Yeah, as is proven by the people on these message boards, fundamentalists are completely unintelligent.

[chri'stina 190]

Honestly that's really silly...

I wish someone would do a study on that. Because the results may be different than expected. Most people know I love C.S. Lewis' works. He was extremely intelligent, a professor at Oxford and Cambridge, well known and respected, and very strong in his faith in God. He was an atheist for many years of his young adult life. But after trying to prove Christianity was dumb and also trying to prove that believing in God was ignorant...he ended up believing it himself with no pressure from anyone else. But instead he himself figured it out. There are many others like him.

I have a BA in Sociology, I skipped 7th grade in middle school because of my ability to learn very fast, so what? Do I get to be called educated now? I intend to get my masters one day. There are many well educated Christians. Education doesn't mean to pretend there is no God.

Agreed. there is no proof of that. Education doesn't preclude someone from having religious, spiritual views. I think the point is getting lost is that its fundamentalists who are broadly characterised by a lack of education.

True, but I think the opinion of what is a fundamentalist is different from person to person too. I may be considered a fundamentalist by some, yet I am still educated.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Honestly that's really silly...

I wish someone would do a study on that. Because the results may be different than expected. Most people know I love C.S. Lewis' works. He was extremely intelligent, a professor at Oxford and Cambridge, well known and respected, and very strong in his faith in God. He was an atheist for many years of his young adult life. But after trying to prove Christianity was dumb and also trying to prove that believing in God was ignorant...he ended up believing it himself with no pressure from anyone else. But instead he himself figured it out. There are many others like him.

I have a BA in Sociology, I skipped 7th grade in middle school because of my ability to learn very fast, so what? Do I get to be called educated now? I intend to get my masters one day. There are many well educated Christians. Education doesn't mean to pretend there is no God.

Agreed. there is no proof of that. Education doesn't preclude someone from having religious, spiritual views. I think the point is getting lost is that its fundamentalists who are broadly characterised by a lack of education.

True, but I think the opinion of what is a fundamentalist is different from person to person too. I may be considered a fundamentalist by some, yet I am still educated.

True enough - its not just about religion. I would imagine a person who say, commits murder in the name of their religion via suicide bomb (for instance) would have some sort of personality defect (low self-esteem, for example) that would make them willing to believe that this kind of action is justifiable (even though it conflicts with the basic philosophy of their religion).

I think you will agree that religion is not a set of rules that must be slavishly followed - its a more interactive , introspective and philosophical process.

[chri'stina 190]

Honestly that's really silly...

I wish someone would do a study on that. Because the results may be different than expected. Most people know I love C.S. Lewis' works. He was extremely intelligent, a professor at Oxford and Cambridge, well known and respected, and very strong in his faith in God. He was an atheist for many years of his young adult life. But after trying to prove Christianity was dumb and also trying to prove that believing in God was ignorant...he ended up believing it himself with no pressure from anyone else. But instead he himself figured it out. There are many others like him.

I have a BA in Sociology, I skipped 7th grade in middle school because of my ability to learn very fast, so what? Do I get to be called educated now? I intend to get my masters one day. There are many well educated Christians. Education doesn't mean to pretend there is no God.

Agreed. there is no proof of that. Education doesn't preclude someone from having religious, spiritual views. I think the point is getting lost is that its fundamentalists who are broadly characterised by a lack of education.

True, but I think the opinion of what is a fundamentalist is different from person to person too. I may be considered a fundamentalist by some, yet I am still educated.

True enough - its not just about religion. I would imagine a person who say, commits murder in the name of their religion via suicide bomb (for instance) would have some sort of personality defect (low self-esteem, for example) that would make them willing to believe that this kind of action is justifiable (even though it conflicts with the basic philosophy of their religion).

I think you will agree that religion is not a set of rules that must be slavishly followed - its a more interactive , introspective and philosophical process.

I agree.

[Ban Hammer 14,076]

True enough - its not just about religion. I would imagine a person who say, commits murder in the name of their religion via suicide bomb (for instance) would have some sort of personality defect (low self-esteem, for example) that would make them willing to believe that this kind of action is justifiable (even though it conflicts with the basic philosophy of their religion).

I think you will agree that religion is not a set of rules that must be slavishly followed - its a more interactive , introspective and philosophical process.

i prefer the term "gullible" to describe those who do that

[gimygirl 0]

I remember not long ago Wog, you asked people on VJ to pray for you when you were going through very hard times. I did pray for you, and you seemed very appreciate of everyone's prayers back then. Yes, Mr Atheist believed in prayer during rough times.

*claps* i believe that would be arthur getting OWNED by christina!! very salient point as well! i remember questioning him about that and he was not very happy ... guess he wanted to have his cake and eat it too!

[Sister Fracas 5]

I remember not long ago Wog, you asked people on VJ to pray for you when you were going through very hard times. I did pray for you, and you seemed very appreciate of everyone's prayers back then. Yes, Mr Atheist believed in prayer during rough times.

*claps* i believe that would be arthur getting OWNED by christina!! very salient point as well! i remember questioning him about that and he was not very happy ... guess he wanted to have his cake and eat it too!

bwahahaha

[rclouse 0]

I have a BFA in Character Animation...

Is that a Bachelor of Fscking Arts? hahahaha I kill me

The amount of self-righteous posts is starting to make me gag.

Pot? Kettle on the line....

Sorry, couldn't resist. I do prefer the "new, improved" incanada over the old one. Still a ways to go, though IMHO.

I wish someone would do a study on that. Because the results may be different than expected. Most people know I love C.S. Lewis' works. He was extremely intelligent, a professor at Oxford and Cambridge, well known and respected, and very strong in his faith in God. He was an atheist for many years of his young adult life. But after trying to prove Christianity was dumb and also trying to prove that believing in God was ignorant...he ended up believing it himself with no pressure from anyone else. But instead he himself figured it out. There are many others like him.

Convenient he happened to "figure out" what you believe. Would you still respect him if he had "figured out" Buddhism was the right path for himself? Or Islam? Or Hinduism?

Believe what you want, but don't think less of someone cause they believe something different. Think about this: maybe God wants that person to believe in something different.