Who or what is Terrorism??

[Veiled Princess 1]

I just want to clarify that I am not claiming to be a religious leader or a scholar of anything! If I use the word we/our/us I am just talking about muslims in general.

Layla

[Veiled Princess 1]

From what you're saying then, is it accurate to suggest then that Islam is more decentralised than say, the various branches of christianity which have a hierarchical structure and clearly defined leaders?

If so, aside from the ideological similarities between Islam and christianity, I have to wonder if many of the criticisms of Islam stem simply by virtue of the fact that it is not christianity.

That would be pretty accurate. There are no priests or cardinals or bishops who control what everyone is allowed to believe as a collective. We have religious leaders and scholars but we pretty much are encouraged to learn it for ourselves instead of just taking another man's word for it. Of course if you have a question and you can't find the answer or the understanding then you refer to it the scholar that you trust and he will explain it and give you the proof to back it up. If he doesn't have the proof then you have the right to ask about it.

One learns to trust certain scholars based upon reading his/her works and seeing if they back up their statements/fatawa with proofs from the Quran and Sunnah (the ahadeeth we talked about before).

There is no room in Islam for things to be made up. There must be proof to back it up or you shouldn't say it.

[Ban Hammer 14,566]

I don't remember calling you a dumb redneck... a pig and a donkey is all I am guilty of calling you today.... no promises for tomorrow

well did you study up on some new ones? it's a new day after all.

[mercuryroad 0]

If so, aside from the ideological similarities between Islam and christianity, I have to wonder if many of the criticisms of Islam stem simply by virtue of the fact that it is not christianity.

Nope. The criticism comes from the lack of ability to deal with the internal problem and the fact that governments sponsor these actions. Abducting soliders is criminal....and the organization that did it resides in Lebanon and in fact has representation in the government. They also choose to do nothing about it, making them criminals themselves. Israel attacks and innocent Lebanese people die. Like I said before, Lebanon values Hezbollah more than their own people and would rather see their own innocent people die than take down Hezbollah. Lebanon in a sense, sanctions the death of their own citizens by supporting a group that murders citizens of another country.

[Ban Hammer 14,566]

Luxenberg tries to show that many obscurities of the Koran disappear if we read certain words as being Syriac and not Arabic. We cannot go into the technical details of his methodology but it allows Luxenberg, to the probable horror of all Muslim males dreaming of sexual bliss in the Muslim hereafter, to conjure away the wide-eyed houris promised to the faithful in suras XLIV.54; LII.20, LV.72, and LVI.22. Luxenberg 's new analysis, leaning on the Hymns of Ephrem the Syrian, yields "white raisins" of "crystal clarity" rather than doe-eyed, and ever willing virgins - the houris. Luxenberg claims that the context makes it clear that it is food and drink that is being offerred, and not unsullied maidens or houris.

In Syriac, the word hur is a feminine plural adjective meaning white, with the word "raisin" understood implicitly. Similarly, the immortal, pearl-like ephebes or youths of suras such as LXXVI.19 are really a misreading of a Syriac expression meaning chilled raisins (or drinks) that the just will have the pleasure of tasting in contrast to the boiling drinks promised the unfaithful and damned.

well that must be a real bummer. get to heaven and find raisins instead of virgins.

Edited July 14, 2006 by charlesandnessa

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Lebanon in a sense, sanctions the death of their own citizens by supporting a group that murders citizens of another country.

I don't know if that's necessarily true. The real powers behind Hizballah are Syria and Iran. The Lebanese government is a midget next to those giants and really have no power to do anything about them. The de facto government of what we call Lebanon sits in Damascus and Tehran, not Beirut.

[Fuzzness 2]

does the koran really say to kill all the infedels? or is that not true? and how is infidel defined?

[Ban Hammer 14,566]

Lebanon in a sense, sanctions the death of their own citizens by supporting a group that murders citizens of another country.

I don't know if that's necessarily true. The real powers behind Hizballah are Syria and Iran. The Lebanese government is a midget next to those giants and really have no power to do anything about them. The de facto government of what we call Lebanon sits in Damascus and Tehran, not Beirut.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

does the koran really say to kill all the infedels? or is that not true? and how is infidel defined?

If what I've been told is correct, the Quran distinguises between people "of the book" (al-kitab) and the rest. People of the book are Christians, Jews and Muslims. They are the people who have read divine scripture. They're good but the C & J's are just somewhat misled since the Bible is "corrupted" and Mohammad came down to "correct" it and his word is what's final and pure and Gods final word. The rest of us (Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans etc) are infidels (kuffar).

And I dont believe theyre required to kill infidels. They do go to heaven if they convert one though. And if they kill an infidel in battle they go to heaven too. But not for murdering one. Kind of the same concept behind the "thou shalt not kill" commandment in the christian world... it means you can't murder, but it doesn't mean you can not kill in self defense.

[Fuzzness 2]

does the koran really say to kill all the infedels? or is that not true? and how is infidel defined?

If what I've been told is correct, the Quran distinguises between people "of the book" (al-kitab) and the rest. People of the book are Christians, Jews and Muslims. They are the people who have read divine scripture. They're good but the C & J's are just somewhat misled since the Bible is "corrupted" and Mohammad came down to "correct" it and his word is what's final and pure and Gods final word. The rest of us (Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans etc) are infidels (kuffar).

And I dont believe theyre required to kill infidels. They do go to heaven if they convert one though. And if they kill an infidel in battle they go to heaven too. But not for murdering one. Kind of the same concept behind the "thou shalt not kill" commandment in the christian world... it means you can't murder, but it doesn't mean you can not kill in self defense.

that makes more sense. thanks

are they allowed to kill people of the book in battle too? or is it just us wicked people

[mercuryroad 0]

Lebanon in a sense, sanctions the death of their own citizens by supporting a group that murders citizens of another country.

I don't know if that's necessarily true. The real powers behind Hizballah are Syria and Iran. The Lebanese government is a midget next to those giants and really have no power to do anything about them. The de facto government of what we call Lebanon sits in Damascus and Tehran, not Beirut.

No - you're correct. I stepped too far out there and I apologize. Certainly the utlimate control and money supply comes from elsewhere.

I would think Lebanon would welcome the help in getting these criminals out of their country to be honest. And certainly nobody can complain that Israel is going after them. They did afterall invade their country and take two soldiers hostage.

As far as Israel's response.....I think it is too harsh and is going after targets that are questionably linked to Hezbollah. I have no issue with them going after the criminals in the South however.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

does the koran really say to kill all the infedels? or is that not true? and how is infidel defined?

If what I've been told is correct, the Quran distinguises between people "of the book" (al-kitab) and the rest. People of the book are Christians, Jews and Muslims. They are the people who have read divine scripture. They're good but the C & J's are just somewhat misled since the Bible is "corrupted" and Mohammad came down to "correct" it and his word is what's final and pure and Gods final word. The rest of us (Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans etc) are infidels (kuffar).

And I dont believe theyre required to kill infidels. They do go to heaven if they convert one though. And if they kill an infidel in battle they go to heaven too. But not for murdering one. Kind of the same concept behind the "thou shalt not kill" commandment in the christian world... it means you can't murder, but it doesn't mean you can not kill in self defense.

that makes more sense. thanks

are they allowed to kill people of the book in battle too? or is it just us wicked people

not sure. I do know Mohammads army killed Jews in battle so my guess is yes. That makes me wonder, waht's the difference? Im sure one of the sistas will be on shortly to clarify.

I would think Lebanon would welcome the help in getting these criminals out of their country to be honest.

Remember, Israel can "help" Lebanon get rid of Hizballah but once Hizballah is neutralized, they will leave... and Lebanon will have to deal with the rest of the Arab world all on its own. They don't brook betrayal too well and the Lebanese leadership will be put in serious danger if they cooperate with Israel. In the end, Lebanon is weak and has to keep its powerful "friends" happy.

And certainly nobody can complain that Israel is going after them. They did afterall invade their country and take two soldiers hostage.

No argument there.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If so, aside from the ideological similarities between Islam and christianity, I have to wonder if many of the criticisms of Islam stem simply by virtue of the fact that it is not christianity.

Nope. The criticism comes from the lack of ability to deal with the internal problem and the fact that governments sponsor these actions. Abducting soliders is criminal....and the organization that did it resides in Lebanon and in fact has representation in the government. They also choose to do nothing about it, making them criminals themselves. Israel attacks and innocent Lebanese people die. Like I said before, Lebanon values Hezbollah more than their own people and would rather see their own innocent people die than take down Hezbollah. Lebanon in a sense, sanctions the death of their own citizens by supporting a group that murders citizens of another country.

That's not what I said - I mean't general criticisms of Islam. You know this 'where is the outrage' tune that people seem so intent on playing - is based, I think, on a general misunderstanding not only of comparative religious doctrines but how the fact that it is not a organised, hierarchical institution - compared to say, the various denominations of the catholic church.

In that regard, Islam is often criticised simply because it is not more like christianity (structurally at least).

Am not condoning in any way the tactics of Hezbollah.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

does the koran really say to kill all the infedels? or is that not true? and how is infidel defined?

If what I've been told is correct, the Quran distinguises between people "of the book" (al-kitab) and the rest. People of the book are Christians, Jews and Muslims. They are the people who have read divine scripture. They're good but the C & J's are just somewhat misled since the Bible is "corrupted" and Mohammad came down to "correct" it and his word is what's final and pure and Gods final word. The rest of us (Hindus, Buddhists, Pagans etc) are infidels (kuffar).

And I dont believe theyre required to kill infidels. They do go to heaven if they convert one though. And if they kill an infidel in battle they go to heaven too. But not for murdering one. Kind of the same concept behind the "thou shalt not kill" commandment in the christian world... it means you can't murder, but it doesn't mean you can not kill in self defense.

that makes more sense. thanks

are they allowed to kill people of the book in battle too? or is it just us wicked people

While the rules of war are made up of parts of the Qur'an and sunnah (traditions of the Prophet), they can be pretty much summed up with these verses (2:190-2:194):

AND FIGHT in God's cause against those who wage war against you, but do not commit aggression-for, verily, God does not love aggressors.

And slay them wherever you may come upon them, and drive them away from wherever they drove you away - for oppression is even worse than killing. And fight not against them near the Inviolable House of Worship unless they fight against you there first; but if they fight against you, slay them: such shall be the recompense of those who deny the truth.

But if they desist-behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace.

Hence, fight against them until there is no more oppression and all worship is devoted to God alone; but if they desist, then all hostility shall cease, save against those who [wilfully] do wrong.

Fight during the sacred months if you are attacked: for a violation of sanctity is [subject to the law of] just retribution. Thus, if anyone commits aggression against you, attack him just as he has attacked you - but remain conscious of God, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Hence, fight against them until there is no more oppression and all worship is devoted to God alone

Except I'm sure the verse uses the word Allah and not God, right?

And before you say Allah _is_ God, let me interject... no Allah is _your_ God.

Edited July 14, 2006 by Gupt