France to ban Burqas/Niqab in Public?

[Staashi 371]

I guess you can look at it like depravation of rights everywhere. I just dislike when people on here think all the ME countries are "right" in their approach to life and preserving their way of life however when other countries do the same thing people are aghast. If this is French law then that's the law. I think it's idiotic that you have to wear a chador in KSA or that women can't drive, and that you have to veil in Iran, or are acid attacked in Afghanistan for showing an ankle. How come no one is outraged at that? Women are more free in France or just about any other country on Earth than those two places. And as I previously said if they don't like French laws France isn't holding them hostage.

WOW!! I don't know it said that anywhere?? You still missed the point badly sister!! Ahmed's Girl; Staashi and you are stating your opinions concerning the attire which I have no problem with you guys don't believe in it and don't like it; great...but that's not the point at all!!! Again the right to CHOOSE! Is that too much to ask? If it was about right or wrong....Heck no they are not right walking around half naked and letting their body parts hang in everyone's face... When I went to Las Vegas last christmas it was freezing and the men were fully dressed with heavy jackets on and the poor women barely had anything on just for the sake to impress!! To me that's opression too.

Also for those who mention diseases from the lack on sunlight....well you must know as well that skin cancer is from exposure to the sun!!

By the way I respect you so much and sister Staashi and would not mean to offend neither of you by any means

HLM, you know I adore you and I'm not out to offend anyone. I respect hijabis...in my religion, Catholicism, there are still many women who veil themselves as a sign of respect to our Lord. So, when I say oppressive, it's not that I meant it is oppressive to have to wear one like they're trying to keep someone down...I mean oppressive as in wearing a sweater on a 100 degree day. That's oppressive. Ask Jess who lives in KSA how often she, or other women who live there, venture outside due to the oppressive heat. She said yesterday that it had been 2 weeks. I don't think I could take it. Now remember, my perspective is from a Floridian point of view. It's HOT!!! Furthermore, who the heck decided that women should be in black niqab and not white? That doesn't seem too brilliant when black draws the sun/heat and white reflects it. Why are the men always dressed in white? So they can be cool because it reflects the sun.

There should be freedom to choose, but shouldn't that mean that if I went to KSA or Iran or anywhere else that I have the freedom to choose not to cover up? I would dress modestly, but I wouldn't be allowed to freely walk around without a hijab/chador/niqab. If I went to any of those places, I wouldn't have that option just like the women there do not.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Staashi

[Zee Bee 61]

Studies have been done that show that vitamin D deficeincy is higher in women who veil, ie, cover their entire bodies including their faces, than other women.

There was a study done in Denmark in 2000 that showed that (1) diet and (2) lack of exposure to sunlight were the contributing factors to vitamin D deficiency. These women were not just from MENA (some were Danish convets, others were other races that veiled as well). Just taking the recommended daily allowance of a vitamin D supplement is not enough to reverse the effects. It needs to be an increase in the amount taken and dietary changes as well.

[sandinista! 1,816]

Studies have been done that show that vitamin D deficeincy is higher in women who veil, ie, cover their entire bodies including their faces, than other women.

There was a study done in Denmark in 2000 that showed that (1) diet and (2) lack of exposure to sunlight were the contributing factors to vitamin D deficiency. These women were not just from MENA (some were Danish convets, others were other races that veiled as well). Just taking the recommended daily allowance of a vitamin D supplement is not enough to reverse the effects. It needs to be an increase in the amount taken and dietary changes as well.

i've seen that study. ethnicity was also a big factor in it. the ethnic danish muslims had deficiencies, but they were not nearly as severe as the arab muslims in the study, due to diet and their ethnicity. my daughter's pediatrician, when recommending i give her vitamin d supplements because i'm nursing her, explicitly said that because of her background (she's half moroccan) that often times people from more southern climates will experience vitamin d deficiencies in more northern climates because they simply aren't as efficient at utilizing the more scant supply of sunshine here. she also said a poor diet coupled with an indoor job could trigger a deficiency in my adult husband. the more melanin there is in one's skin, the more time they need in sunlight to synthesize the same amount of vitamin d synthesized by a person with less melanin in a shorter period of time. the time required just may not ever be long enough in parts of northern europe. northern europeans have had millenia to adapt-recent immigrants and their descendants have not. there has also been a re-emergence of rickets among children of dairy farmers on the oregon coast, and none of them are wearing hijabs. it's just a very rainy place, with very little sun, and they had been drinking milk before it had been fortified with vitamin d. once they began drinking the fortified milk, and receiving higher doses than the recommended daily intake, they were fine. different populations will have different needs sometimes. it doesn't necessarily mean there is something inherently wrong with their way of life.

vitamind d is technically a prohormone, not a vitamin. there is no benefit or superiority to getting it through sunlight vs. supplementation or fortified foods. or foods naturally containing it. vitamin d is not like other vitamins and nutrients in that aspect. it's where i get my vitamin d as well- i don't cover up my face, but i certainly wear a a lot of sunscreen whenever i'm outside. i dont' want freckles, i don't want age spots, and i don't want skin cancer.

[sandinista! 1,816]

Fair enough - but a woman living in a devloped nation wouldn't suffer from a poor diet most likely- therefore what is the basis for the vitamin deficiency. Also it has been shown that vitamins through supplements are not as good as acquring them naturally through nature or food.

really!? community health drs and nurses and nutritionists would find that amazing!

are you freaking kidding me? we live in one of the wealthiest, highly developed nations in the world, and the nutritional statuses of a lot of people here are dismal. an astounding amount of people in fact.

[doodlebugg 10]

My father came over the house the other day *specifically* to tell me that if I don't take off my veil outside all of my hair will fall out because lack of sunshine. I thanked him for the advice but let him know that in the spring/summer/fall I take it off when I sit on my back deck. He looked so sullen after that like he lost.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

According to my (non muslim) mom's (non muslim) physician, vitamen d definciencies are rampant in population at large. He's been pushing vitamen d pills for years. She in turn pushes them on me and will occasionally slip a bottle into a bag of books she gives me. Except they usually have gelatin in them. Dur.

[sandinista! 1,816]

I think it's idiotic that you have to wear a chador in KSA or that women can't drive, and that you have to veil in Iran, or are acid attacked in Afghanistan for showing an ankle. How come no one is outraged at that?

Excellent point, Mrs Amera. Some on this site are keen to embrace minority rights only when their interests are affected. They happily ignore the realities of minorities in some so-called Islamic countries. Most of the ones idealizing Islamic regimes wouldn't be able to last a month there. They are used to the freedom and respect western democracies have carved for women.

Debates like the one caused by the French President are blown out of proportion, yet I don't hear the same people protesting about the rights of women in Iran and SA. It's beyond hypocrisy... it's selfish posturing that demeans human rights. Women in Egypt, Iran, SA and other disgusting regimes would be grateful for the rights afforded to women in France. Hell, even some men would. It's easy to take freedom for granted when you have it.

It saddens me that some women (whenever this type of debate arises) immediately jump into predictable 'label women who dress as they please' as 'tramps' mode. These same women are often the very ones who complain about being labelled or judges themselves. Crazy thinking.

My position is clear... ALL women should be able to dress as they like. Women equating skimpy dress as 'tramp- like' are as culpable and irresponsible as the men who claim women deserve to be raped because of how they dress. Suggesting a woman in a veil is more moral than a woman in tight jeans is nuts. Until women recognise our responsibilities in breaking these stereotypes, nothing will change. If we want our daughters to have better lives, we should all be more mindful of the rights of ALL women.

the thread was created in response to a french issue. it's not hypocritical to write about france when france is the topic, even though women suffer far greater indignities and assaults on their freedom in other places around the world. but it's completely possible to limit the topic to france without being a hypocrite. myself, and several others i know on this forum who feel that france outlawing burqas is an assault on religious freedom have expressed outrage over the assault on all kinds of women's freedoms in other countries too, lots of times on this website. i don't have to prove anything here-and the fact that i'm not talking about other countries in this particular thread does not make my opinion any less valid that banning burqas in france is wrong, and an assault on personal freedom.

is the american civil liberties union hypocritical because they defend americans' civil rights when people in other countries have far fewer civil rights than americans? should americans just ignore any and all governmental intrusions on their personal freedoms and just suck it up because other people around the planet have it a lot worse? in portland last year, the aclu defended a basketball team's religious right to not have to compete on their sabbath in order to participate in a championship tournament. would you tell them they're wrong to fight for their rights because someone, somewhere on the planet is suffering worse than they are? that's ridiculous.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Also, what's so funny about niqabi women shopping for fashionable clothes? Does the author really think they wear all black 24/7? That's almost are rediculous as the people who ask if hijabis wear "it" in the shower.

Some of the most bling-ful women I've seen are hijabis and niqabis at all women's parties.

[sandinista! 1,816]

Also, what's so funny about niqabi women shopping for fashionable clothes? Does the author really think they wear all black 24/7? That's almost are rediculous as the people who ask if hijabis wear "it" in the shower.

Some of the most bling-ful women I've seen are hijabis and niqabis at all women's parties.

i know, right? are women shopping for gorgeous lingerie that they intend to be seen in by only one man ridiculous too? (or only one woman, if that's their persuasion) whatever size audience women wear their clothing for, whether it's 1 or 100 is none of that nosy #######'s business.

[Staashi 371]

Also, what's so funny about niqabi women shopping for fashionable clothes? Does the author really think they wear all black 24/7? That's almost are rediculous as the people who ask if hijabis wear "it" in the shower.

Some of the most bling-ful women I've seen are hijabis and niqabis at all women's parties.

Now that is the truth! When my Saudi girlfriend got married, she sent me pics...OMG!!! Those ladies looked like the bling fairy had come through and sprayed them down. And yes, not a hijab or niqab in sight.

[HLM 1]

Staashi- I know what you are talking about; I had to go to SA every summer for 15 yrs of my life and I agree with you on some of the points you made but again SA was clear about their politics from day one and they have nothing to hide that they will implement their rules on everyone whether someone likes it or not...is that right? no I disagree with forcing anyone to do something they don't want to do -part of why they have so many hidden problems- because it's against Islam BUT we are talking about France....a secular country that claims freedom for all; where they represent democracy something we badly miss in the ME so why not practice what they preach; that's my whole point. I can honestly say I am thankful for the freedom I have in America I am so grateful for the tolerance of some people of this country I have learned so much from living here that I wish one day Egypt would have at least 1/1O the freedom of choice that exists here.

ETA: yes SA women are so wealthy and live very large!! I have been to their houses and saw it all! masha Allah I can honestly say some them are everything but oppressed! They dress the best brands; have the best parties and travel every year to somewhere amazing!! - you can only dream of a life like that

Edited June 26, 2009 by HLM

[CnT4ever 1]

Fair enough - but a woman living in a devloped nation wouldn't suffer from a poor diet most likely- therefore what is the basis for the vitamin deficiency. Also it has been shown that vitamins through supplements are not as good as acquring them naturally through nature or food.

really!? community health drs and nurses and nutritionists would find that amazing!

are you freaking kidding me? we live in one of the wealthiest, highly developed nations in the world, and the nutritional statuses of a lot of people here are dismal. an astounding amount of people in fact.

No kidding! I am going to remain Because no matter how much medicine based evidence you provide, it's still all the hijab/niqab's fault

By the way, you do realize that Denmark because of it's location, has very little hours of sunlight in the winter time...so the whole population would be affected (not just veiled people).

Edited June 26, 2009 by CnT4ever

[Ahmeds Girl 0]

I think it's idiotic that you have to wear a chador in KSA or that women can't drive, and that you have to veil in Iran, or are acid attacked in Afghanistan for showing an ankle. How come no one is outraged at that?

Excellent point, Mrs Amera. Some on this site are keen to embrace minority rights only when their interests are affected. They happily ignore the realities of minorities in some so-called Islamic countries. Most of the ones idealizing Islamic regimes wouldn't be able to last a month there. They are used to the freedom and respect western democracies have carved for women.

Debates like the one caused by the French President are blown out of proportion, yet I don't hear the same people protesting about the rights of women in Iran and SA. It's beyond hypocrisy... it's selfish posturing that demeans human rights. Women in Egypt, Iran, SA and other disgusting regimes would be grateful for the rights afforded to women in France. Hell, even some men would. It's easy to take freedom for granted when you have it.

It saddens me that some women (whenever this type of debate arises) immediately jump into predictable 'label women who dress as they please' as 'tramps' mode. These same women are often the very ones who complain about being labelled or judges themselves. Crazy thinking.

My position is clear... ALL women should be able to dress as they like. Women equating skimpy dress as 'tramp- like' are as culpable and irresponsible as the men who claim women deserve to be raped because of how they dress. Suggesting a woman in a veil is more moral than a woman in tight jeans is nuts. Until women recognise our responsibilities in breaking these stereotypes, nothing will change. If we want our daughters to have better lives, we should all be more mindful of the rights of ALL women.

the thread was created in response to a french issue. it's not hypocritical to write about france when france is the topic, even though women suffer far greater indignities and assaults on their freedom in other places around the world. but it's completely possible to limit the topic to france without being a hypocrite. myself, and several others i know on this forum who feel that france outlawing burqas is an assault on religious freedom have expressed outrage over the assault on all kinds of women's freedoms in other countries too, lots of times on this website. i don't have to prove anything here-and the fact that i'm not talking about other countries in this particular thread does not make my opinion any less valid that banning burqas in france is wrong, and an assault on personal freedom.

is the american civil liberties union hypocritical because they defend americans' civil rights when people in other countries have far fewer civil rights than americans? should americans just ignore any and all governmental intrusions on their personal freedoms and just suck it up because other people around the planet have it a lot worse? in portland last year, the aclu defended a basketball team's religious right to not have to compete on their sabbath in order to participate in a championship tournament. would you tell them they're wrong to fight for their rights because someone, somewhere on the planet is suffering worse than they are? that's ridiculous.

Your point about relevance is a fair one. The subject was about France. The problem is that when discussing women's rights and religion, it's natural that wider comparisons are often made. The French President was opening a debate. The French haven't banned niqab in public. I think he is wrong and hopefully, the citizens of France will too. Human rights (or women's rights) in France are vastly superior to Islamic states and that fact shouldn't be taken out of context when discussions about niqab arise.

Edited June 29, 2009 by Ahmeds Girl

[caroledfb 0]

I totally agree with the French law.

You need to understand France and its values first before you judge this law.

The value is: people should be given the same opportunity to integrate society. The French system is totally SEPARATE from religion.

In your home/backyard you are free to wear BDSM outfits or have your wife wear a burka showing only her eyes.

In public, please do not wear something that can be interpreted as extremely demeaning for female rights.

Peace and love and equality and respect!