Failing relationships

[eekee 182]

Julianna, I don't think we can ignore that the average woman is built differently from the average man. I've had boyfriends who were very skinny, who could fit into my jeans--but were WAY stronger than me and didn't work out ever. Whereas I work out every day and would be powerless against them. It's simply easier for men to build muscle mass. Sure, there are some women who are able to do stuff like fight fires--I saw one such woman on Women's Ultimate Ninja Warrior--but most will have to work a lot harder to get the same strength as a man. Yes, people should be judged on their merits--but in general, women are less strong. And unless you want to become a body builder or personal trainer, there's not much you can do about it.

It's not about height and weight, but overall strength. You can be 5' tall anf very strong.

Edited May 18, 2009 by eekee

[Nasturtium 500]

Julianna, I don't think we can ignore that the average woman is built differently from the average man. I've had boyfriends who were very skinny, who could fit into my jeans--but were WAY stronger than me and didn't work out ever. Whereas I work out every day and would be powerless against them. It's simply easier for men to build muscle mass. Sure, there are some women who are able to do stuff like fight fires--I saw one such woman on Women's Ultimate Ninja Warrior--but most will have to work a lot harder to get the same strength as a man. Yes, people should be judged on their merits--but in general, women are less strong. And unless you want to become a body builder or personal trainer, there's not much you can do about it.

It's not about height and weight, but overall strength. You can be 5' tall anf very strong.

Except this is still within the same population. Building muscle mass isn't a particular issue-- it's a hormonal issue related to ammounts of testosterone, etc. There have to be biological differences between sexes except in the rarest of cases-- because species which sex have to have each sex do something different. It's also combined with cultural expectations. Where women are expected to take down and haul bundles of lodge poles, they grow up doing it. We happen to seriously look down on women who build massive muscles and who lose majority body fat. You can argue it's a health issue, but some of it is just culture and nothing more. We're also talking dimorphism. Sexual dimporphism is systemic difference in form. People usually assume humans are dimorphic because of the muscle-building abilities and intra-populational height differences... but you have to look species-wide and not just at one population. Also, by admitting it is possible, that 100% rules out dimorphism. I'm not saying women who cannot do these things should be able to just because they are women-- but just saying we are not a sexually dimorphic species. I think that concept is lost on most people, and they attribute the idea to feminism. It's not feminism, it's simple biology and anthropology.

[eekee 182]

OK, so we're not 100% dimorphic--but there ARE going to be differences. Between American women and Russian men, and Russian women and American men--it's still going to be that chances are, the man will be stronger. Except in cases where the woman is a body-builder or whatever. It's POSSIBLE, but more difficult.

[GiGii 4]

I know of no young russian alki's, or woman beaters.

Hmmm. No offense, but you really seem like a person who sees the world as she wants to see it. Spend *any* time in Russia, and you can't help but see the effects of alcoholism in Russia. Spend some time in a small village (as I have), and it will stare you in the face almost every second you are out of doors. And the reason you don't know of any "woman beaters" is because it's not usually done publicly, although I've seen it happen in night clubs.

About Russia's 75 cents to a mans dollar, this will never change. We can't get this working in the US, how would we in countries where women are less valued.

Not that it's germane to the feminism discussion, but again, you're seeing things the way you want to see them, but you are wrong. Wages between men and women in the US are closing (the gap widens sometimes, and then closes again, but the overall trend is smaller), and have been closing for decades. And even closer to Russia, if I remember correctly one of the Scandinavian countries actually has a practically nil gap between wages. So it has been working in the US and abroad, so there's no reason to think it couldn't happen in Russia. But there has to be political and social will to push such change, which probably isn't there yet.

1. If you read my posts, you'd notice that what I wrote, I stated that it was more seen in large cities, not small villages. Please read before you attack. I dont have to have your view or opinion. I see the world as I see it and base MY opinions on it. You can see it as you wish, and those are your opinions, but I'm not wrong because mine differ.

2. Let me prove why you are wrong. You get on here with your made up facts and think you are this RU & US expert. The age gap is not closing in, its widening. And my 75 cents was wrong, gov't says it is 75.5 cents for a mans dollar. Women orgs say its 78cents. Still not close to closing in or small, and since 2005 the gap is widening.

"The workplace pay gap between men and women, once thought to be narrowing, has only been getting worse, according to an analysis of recently released census data conducted by the Institute for Women’s Policy Research. Women make only 75.5 cents for every dollar that men earn, according to a new release by the U.S. Census Bureau."

[Brad and Vika 129]

[eekee 182]

I know of no young russian alki's, or woman beaters.

Hmmm. No offense, but you really seem like a person who sees the world as she wants to see it. Spend *any* time in Russia, and you can't help but see the effects of alcoholism in Russia. Spend some time in a small village (as I have), and it will stare you in the face almost every second you are out of doors. And the reason you don't know of any "woman beaters" is because it's not usually done publicly, although I've seen it happen in night clubs.

About Russia's 75 cents to a mans dollar, this will never change. We can't get this working in the US, how would we in countries where women are less valued.

Not that it's germane to the feminism discussion, but again, you're seeing things the way you want to see them, but you are wrong. Wages between men and women in the US are closing (the gap widens sometimes, and then closes again, but the overall trend is smaller), and have been closing for decades. And even closer to Russia, if I remember correctly one of the Scandinavian countries actually has a practically nil gap between wages. So it has been working in the US and abroad, so there's no reason to think it couldn't happen in Russia. But there has to be political and social will to push such change, which probably isn't there yet.

1. If you read my posts, you'd notice that what I wrote, I stated that it was more seen in large cities, not small villages. Please read before you attack. I dont have to have your view or opinion. I see the world as I see it and base MY opinions on it. You can see it as you wish, and those are your opinions, but I'm not wrong because mine differ.

2. Let me prove why you are wrong. You get on here with your made up facts and think you are this RU & US expert. The age gap is not closing in, its widening. And my 75 cents was wrong, gov't says it is 75.5 cents for a mans dollar. Women orgs say its 78cents. Still not close to closing in or small, and since 2005 the gap is widening.

"The workplace pay gap between men and women, once thought to be narrowing, has only been getting worse, according to an analysis of recently released census data conducted by the Institute for Women’s Policy Research. Women make only 75.5 cents for every dollar that men earn, according to a new release by the U.S. Census Bureau."

I trust you on the gap stuff, as I don't really know the statistics all that well. But I think you need to stop with the "this is only what traditional people in the village are like; in big cities men are like this" BS. I've never been to the village--unless you consider St. Petersburg a village. I know only young, well-educated, trendy Russians; the equivalent of American hipsters. Tradtional attitudes toward are pervasive, even in big cities. And alcoholism has a strong genetic component and I don't see how you can magically change that by deciding to be "not villagey." I don't really get who you're hanging around with in Russia--teetotallers? Nerds? Career-obsessed Muscovites who work all the time? If anything, things have gotten worse in Russia in regard to this stuff. Look at life expectancy for men fifty years ago versus today. It used to be pretty normal. Now it's what, 58? And why? Alcoholism. Alcohol-induced injuries. Alcohol-caused fighting. And then throw in a little bit of heroin--a Russian will live for an average of 7 years after shooting up the first time. Ask your husband how many of his friends from school or university have died, and then compare it to your own numbers. Seems like traditional grandfather was living an OK lifestyle.

[Brad and Vika 129]

1. If you read my posts, you'd notice that what I wrote, I stated that it was more seen in large cities, not small villages. Please read before you attack. I dont have to have your view or opinion. I see the world as I see it and base MY opinions on it. You can see it as you wish, and those are your opinions, but I'm not wrong because mine differ.

2. Let me prove why you are wrong. You get on here with your made up facts and think you are this RU & US expert. The age gap is not closing in, its widening. And my 75 cents was wrong, gov't says it is 75.5 cents for a mans dollar. Women orgs say its 78cents. Still not close to closing in or small, and since 2005 the gap is widening.

"The workplace pay gap between men and women, once thought to be narrowing, has only been getting worse, according to an analysis of recently released census data conducted by the Institute for Women’s Policy Research. Women make only 75.5 cents for every dollar that men earn, according to a new release by the U.S. Census Bureau."

God...you're really hawt when you're all hot and bothered like this. If you were to run off now and make me a sandwich, you'd be perfect.

Now now mox, why don't you get in the spirit of the thread. You need halupsie, not a sandwich.

[Brad and Vika 129]

Now now mox, why don't you get in the spirit of the thread. You need halupsie, not a sandwich.

With some kvas to wash it down with.

Now you've got it

[slim 1,533]

I agree with all of this, and say again that I really like the way the gender roles play out in our relationship (mostly). Also, I really like that flowers, etc. get me BIG points as opposed to placed under suspicion of some wrongdoing. Another example is the home atmosphere. She feels that she is naturally in charge of making the home "cozy", while I am in charge of paying for that. Small price so far for the great return.

Vika does seem to put a huge stock in anything she reads on the internet or a (Russian or Ukrainian) magazine though. I am happy that she doesn't follow Oprah and Dr. Phil. We are eating a fair amount of organic food now, and she informed me that there was so much harmful stuff in the shampoo, toothpaste, makeup (who knew? ) now that we must switch to organic. About once a week she discovers some new threat that will surely kill us both, or goes into a panic assuming that triple polio and cancer are one more "gamburger" away. I try to take it all with a grain of salt, because if nutrasweet really kills you, I am a goner already.

This was a complete process at my house and only now is starting to come around. From day one I've stuck to my guns of "this is America and in America we do it like this. The sooner you can get on board, the better." It's taken over two years but it's finally starting to work.

I still sit here eating my gamburgers and killing myself with all the chemicals and everything else that's bad for me. I'll watch her slap mayo and smetana on her natural veggies and salat, soup, etc.

Tomato, tomahto. It doesn't really matter. (But what's really cool is when she says something like, "I see now you right about....." HOLD THE PRESSES!)

OK, so we're not 100% dimorphic--but there ARE going to be differences. Between American women and Russian men, and Russian women and American men--it's still going to be that chances are, the man will be stronger. Except in cases where the woman is a body-builder or whatever. It's POSSIBLE, but more difficult.

eekee is spot-on and I don't remember myself or anyone making the claim that humans were dimorphic. (Although julianna, you do get +5 for using big words. Almost got me!) What I do remember saying is something to the effect of here in the U.S. there's this basic concept of women "deserving" to do anything a man can do and actually suing over legal rights, etc., when they have no biological or anthropological claim to do so.

At least in Russia when women work as soldiers, police or fire, they do it right!

[Nasturtium 500]

eekee is spot-on and I don't remember myself or anyone making the claim that humans were dimorphic. (Although julianna, you do get +5 for using big words. Almost got me!) What I do remember saying is something to the effect of here in the U.S. there's this basic concept of women "deserving" to do anything a man can do and actually suing over legal rights, etc., when they have no biological or anthropological claim to do so.

At least in Russia when women work as soldiers, police or fire, they do it right!

This is what I had figured you were saying, but that often digresses into the whole dimporphism deal, and people confuse dimporphism with just biological differences which are negligable in the overall of the species. Also, you have sexual selection issues... I thought about this when eekee was talking about her boyfriends. I like men to be taller, broader in shoulders, stronger, etc. Lots of women like this kind of thing, which only contributes to the differences. If we all liked men who were totally wimpy and tiny, we'd see more of that because the tall (hot) guys wouldn't get anyone to reproduce with them. I totally agree with what you're saying in the above. I hate incompetence in any shape or form. I think if someone wants to do something great-- but they should probably be qualified to do it (this does not apply to silly situations of course).

[eekee 182]

eekee is spot-on and I don't remember myself or anyone making the claim that humans were dimorphic. (Although julianna, you do get +5 for using big words. Almost got me!) What I do remember saying is something to the effect of here in the U.S. there's this basic concept of women "deserving" to do anything a man can do and actually suing over legal rights, etc., when they have no biological or anthropological claim to do so.

At least in Russia when women work as soldiers, police or fire, they do it right!

This is what I had figured you were saying, but that often digresses into the whole dimporphism deal, and people confuse dimporphism with just biological differences which are negligable in the overall of the species. Also, you have sexual selection issues... I thought about this when eekee was talking about her boyfriends. I like men to be taller, broader in shoulders, stronger, etc. Lots of women like this kind of thing, which only contributes to the differences. If we all liked men who were totally wimpy and tiny, we'd see more of that because the tall (hot) guys wouldn't get anyone to reproduce with them. I totally agree with what you're saying in the above. I hate incompetence in any shape or form. I think if someone wants to do something great-- but they should probably be qualified to do it (this does not apply to silly situations of course).

No, the only word you could use to describe my boyfriends of yore's body types would be ХУДОЙ--definitely not tall, broad-shouldered muscle men.

But when Russian women work as menti, they don't beat up people the way male ones do, although I'm sure they still take bribes. I've only seen them working in the metro as document checkers etc. Biological dimorphism?

[Nasturtium 500]

eekee is spot-on and I don't remember myself or anyone making the claim that humans were dimorphic. (Although julianna, you do get +5 for using big words. Almost got me!) What I do remember saying is something to the effect of here in the U.S. there's this basic concept of women "deserving" to do anything a man can do and actually suing over legal rights, etc., when they have no biological or anthropological claim to do so.

At least in Russia when women work as soldiers, police or fire, they do it right!

This is what I had figured you were saying, but that often digresses into the whole dimporphism deal, and people confuse dimporphism with just biological differences which are negligable in the overall of the species. Also, you have sexual selection issues... I thought about this when eekee was talking about her boyfriends. I like men to be taller, broader in shoulders, stronger, etc. Lots of women like this kind of thing, which only contributes to the differences. If we all liked men who were totally wimpy and tiny, we'd see more of that because the tall (hot) guys wouldn't get anyone to reproduce with them. I totally agree with what you're saying in the above. I hate incompetence in any shape or form. I think if someone wants to do something great-- but they should probably be qualified to do it (this does not apply to silly situations of course).

No, the only word you could use to describe my boyfriends of yore's body types would be ХУДОЙ--definitely not tall, broad-shouldered muscle men.

But when Russian women work as menti, they don't beat up people the way male ones do, although I'm sure they still take bribes. I've only seen them working in the metro as document checkers etc. Biological dimorphism?

Hi, if you notice I didn't say YOU were doing that but rather that I thought about it when you were speaking.

[eekee 182]

Ahh, I see. I misinterpreted what you were saying.

[Nasturtium 500]

Ahh, I see. I misinterpreted what you were saying.

That's OK I mean we pretty much see it all in every combination, don't we? I am glad for it too-- world would be boring if we all liked the same thing.

[Kathryn41 3,205]

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