Note: Removing Inactive members from the Org Team

[LaL 418]

Yeah that big-thread moving capability means we are supposed to be superior in our conduct.

If that didn't involve lying down and being a doormat, I'd have no problem with it.

Why does this have to be about extremes? If I say "I expect VJ 'staff' to be held to the same standards of conduct as a moderator," why does that automatically imply that you must become a doormat? Do you think the moderators are doormats?

And the thread-moving capability has and continues to be abused. If it's not obvious to you how this has been done, then cool because it means you probably haven't abused that ability. But others have.

The call for accountability is because some of you organizers have abused your positions. It may or may not have been you personally, but it's that whole bad apple spoiling it for others thing that has kicked this off.

Oh please Mox. Seriously? Is this about anything other than your tiff with Charles? Moving is "abused"?? This is exactly what tara is referring to. A few situations where feathers are ruffled and people are calling for blood. While there might be some organizers who take the "job" a bit too seriously - there are members who are kinda ridiculously outraged.

[Captain Ewok 1,930]

Whew...!! That is a lot to digest. I think I made my major points on this a few pages back so I will not repeat myself.

Here are a few comments I had though on some of the things I read:

People should not make others feel bad or insult them for not speaking English well. Heck, at least they are trying to talk in what may be a second or third language to get help. Should they learn English when they come to the US -- sure. Does that mean that English will be their best language at this very moment or even the language in which they can best express themselves? I doubt it. VJ is in part about embracing diversity.

Telling someone that you do not like them is not a TOS violation. Telling someone that you think that they are mean or rude is probably not either. In the real world people can respectfully choose to not like you and be honest on why they don't. Example, I tell someone "I don't like you because I think you are a jerk and rude to me -- that is how I feel and I am sorry if that hurts you to hear." Not everyone will be friends. Crossing the so called line would potentially be something like this, "F--- you! You are a piece of horse ----! You can suck it and burn in ---- you little ----". I am pretty sure that crosses the line. So there is a difference between telling a person that you don't like them (and why) versus just purely attacking them.

Not everyone agrees with the mod/admin decisions on this or every site. I know this and while I try my best to listen to everyone and make fair decisions (to everyone), sometimes the final call will have to leave some people unhappy. I spend a lot of time trying to get the opinion of all sides and to appease them, but I heave learned that while this is noble it is also sometimes impossible.

There are many areas of the TOS that list "subjective" do's don'ts (it is impossible to be more precise and in all reality to define good and bad "behavior"). This is why the following text exists in the TOS, "If Visajourney.com discovers Content or communications that allegedly do not conform to any term of the TOS, Visajourney.com may investigate the allegation and determine in good faith and in its sole discretion whether to remove or request the removal of the communication or Content. Visajourney.com will have no liability or responsibility for performance or non-performance of such activities."

Bottom Line... have fun, treat people with respect, not everyone will get along, would you say what you say here at the "office/work"?, consider the diverse nature of the community and respect that.

[Krikit 1,166]

I can honestly say that I have never viewed pushbrk's posts as insulting or condescending. I just see them as his attempt to clarify and/or correct the points or issues being discussed. I also don't feel victimized as an organizer. I believe Ewok's rules for organizers are fair and appropriate.

[Krikit 1,166]

Telling someone that you do not like them is not a TOS violation. Telling someone that you think that they are mean or rude is probably not either. In the real world people can respectfully choose to not like you and be honest on why they don't. Example, I tell someone "I don't like you because I think you are a jerk and rude to me -- that is how I feel and I am sorry if that hurts you to hear." Not everyone will be friends. Crossing the so called line would potentially be something like this, "F--- you! You are a piece of horse ----! You can suck it and burn in ---- you little ----". I am pretty sure that crosses the line. So there is a difference between telling a person that you don't like them (and why) versus just purely attacking them.

[pushbrk 13,914]

People should not make others feel bad or insult them for not speaking English well. Heck, at least they are trying to talk in what may be a second or third language to get help. Should they learn English when they come to the US -- sure. Does that mean that English will be their best language at this very moment or even the language in which they can best express themselves? I doubt it. VJ is in part about embracing diversity.

I appreciate the whole of the level headed response. If you've actually seen anybody insult somebody for not speaking English well, that's one thing. When I mention English skill it is in the context of the need for somebody to have sufficient English skill to study guides, read carefully, interpret literally and determine how to answer accurately and honestly. I suggest that when neither the petitioner or beneficiary has enough skill in that area or it's apparent that if they have it they aren't using it, I suggest their chances of immigration success will be enhanced by obtaining the assistance or services of somebody willing and able to use the needed English language skill. If somebody "feels bad" about their English skill as a result of my advice, that's one of their choices. The hope is they'll take appropriate action regardless of their feelings.

Opinions vary on my motives but they are opinions, often expressed for no other reason than to criticize and without adding anything of substance to an ongoing discussion. I'm going to help people as I think most effective. If it doesn't meet with your approval, you can certainly tell me so. If it's your judgment that the repeated personal attacks are within TOS, so be it. I think they make this a less helpful place. The bickering drives people away, negatively impacting the statistics on which I presume the advertising revenue is based. A private word now and then (more frequently in the context I've brought up) would be welcome in my opinion. I recognize that opinions vary.

[rebeccajo 14]

See what I mean?

You see nothing wrong with how you speak. I said that if it was addressed this would be your response.

[LaL 418]

just kiddin everybunny

Edited December 21, 2008 by LaL

[diadromous mermaid 36]

Well as long as it is just that, and not done to demean someone. Example. Note the bolded words in your reply.

I appreciate the whole of the level headed response. If you've actually seen anybody insult somebody for not speaking English well, that's one thing. When I mention English skill it is in the context of the need for somebody to have sufficient English skill to study guides, read carefully, interpret literally and determine how to answer accurately and honestly. I suggest that when neither the petitioner or beneficiary (it should be "nor") has enough skill in that area or it's apparent that if they have it they aren't using it, I suggest their chances of immigration success will be enhanced by obtaining the assistance or services of somebody willing and able to use the needed English language skill. If somebody "feels bad" (should be "badly") about their English skill as a result of my advice, that's one of their choices. The hope is they'll take appropriate action regardless of their feelings.

Opinions vary on my motives but they are opinions, often expressed for no other reason than to criticize and without adding anything of substance to an ongoing discussion. I'm going to help people as I think most effective. If it doesn't meet with your approval, you can certainly tell me so. If it's your judgment that the repeated personal attacks are within TOS, so be it. I think they make this a less helpful place. The bickering drives people away, negatively impacting the statistics on which I presume the advertising revenue is based. A private word now and then (more frequently in the context I've brought up) would be welcome in my opinion. I recognize that opinions vary.

[rebeccajo 14]

See what I mean?

You see nothing wrong with how you speak. I said that if it was addressed this would be your response.

I should have that on my profile page.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

Back to topic. In the Off Topic forum, I don't think we should fret about enforcing the TOS, unless, as I said earlier, there is an effort to trace back conversations to determine with some degree of certainty the first to throw the foul ball. Frankly, the Off Topic forum doesn't deserve that much attention in that regard. After all, individuals that are offended can report the posts or simply ignore the comments or even refrain from participating or reading the thread entirely. This is not so in the immigration-related fora, where vital information may be shared and asking someone to walk away from a discussion due to some members not knowing how to act with civility contraverts the entire purpose of a site like this. I've seen many a topic shut down BEFORE the correct answer has be arrived at, just to quell a disturbance. This goes against what VJ is all about.

Edited December 21, 2008 by diadromous mermaid

[rebeccajo 14]

Oops!

Well as long as it is just that, and not done to demean someone. Example. Note the bolded words in your reply.

I appreciate the whole of the level headed response. If you've actually seen anybody insult somebody for not speaking English well, that's one thing. When I mention English skill it is in the context of the need for somebody to have sufficient English skill to study guides, read carefully, interpret literally and determine how to answer accurately and honestly. I suggest that when neither the petitioner or beneficiary (it should be "nor") has enough skill in that area or it's apparent that if they have it they aren't using it, I suggest their chances of immigration success will be enhanced by obtaining the assistance or services of somebody willing and able to use the needed English language skill. If somebody "feels bad" (should be "badly") about their English skill as a result of my advice, that's one of their choices. The hope is they'll take appropriate action regardless of their feelings.

Opinions vary on my motives but they are opinions, often expressed for no other reason than to criticize and without adding anything of substance to an ongoing discussion. I'm going to help people as I think most effective. If it doesn't meet with your approval, you can certainly tell me so. If it's your judgment that the repeated personal attacks are within TOS, so be it. I think they make this a less helpful place. The bickering drives people away, negatively impacting the statistics on which I presume the advertising revenue is based. A private word now and then (more frequently in the context I've brought up) would be welcome in my opinion. I recognize that opinions vary.

[pushbrk 13,914]

I choose not to feel demeaned. "Feels bad" is a quote. Do you feel demeaned, Captain?

Well as long as it is just that, and not done to demean someone. Example. Note the bolded words in your reply.

I appreciate the whole of the level headed response. If you've actually seen anybody insult somebody for not speaking English well, that's one thing. When I mention English skill it is in the context of the need for somebody to have sufficient English skill to study guides, read carefully, interpret literally and determine how to answer accurately and honestly. I suggest that when neither the petitioner or beneficiary (it should be "nor") has enough skill in that area or it's apparent that if they have it they aren't using it, I suggest their chances of immigration success will be enhanced by obtaining the assistance or services of somebody willing and able to use the needed English language skill. If somebody "feels bad" (should be "badly") about their English skill as a result of my advice, that's one of their choices. The hope is they'll take appropriate action regardless of their feelings.

Opinions vary on my motives but they are opinions, often expressed for no other reason than to criticize and without adding anything of substance to an ongoing discussion. I'm going to help people as I think most effective. If it doesn't meet with your approval, you can certainly tell me so. If it's your judgment that the repeated personal attacks are within TOS, so be it. I think they make this a less helpful place. The bickering drives people away, negatively impacting the statistics on which I presume the advertising revenue is based. A private word now and then (more frequently in the context I've brought up) would be welcome in my opinion. I recognize that opinions vary.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

I have only one word to share in response to this. Incorrigible!

I choose not to feel demeaned. "Feels bad" is a quote. Do you feel demeaned, Captain?

Well as long as it is just that, and not done to demean someone. Example. Note the bolded words in your reply.

I appreciate the whole of the level headed response. If you've actually seen anybody insult somebody for not speaking English well, that's one thing. When I mention English skill it is in the context of the need for somebody to have sufficient English skill to study guides, read carefully, interpret literally and determine how to answer accurately and honestly. I suggest that when neither the petitioner or beneficiary (it should be "nor") has enough skill in that area or it's apparent that if they have it they aren't using it, I suggest their chances of immigration success will be enhanced by obtaining the assistance or services of somebody willing and able to use the needed English language skill. If somebody "feels bad" (should be "badly") about their English skill as a result of my advice, that's one of their choices. The hope is they'll take appropriate action regardless of their feelings.

Opinions vary on my motives but they are opinions, often expressed for no other reason than to criticize and without adding anything of substance to an ongoing discussion. I'm going to help people as I think most effective. If it doesn't meet with your approval, you can certainly tell me so. If it's your judgment that the repeated personal attacks are within TOS, so be it. I think they make this a less helpful place. The bickering drives people away, negatively impacting the statistics on which I presume the advertising revenue is based. A private word now and then (more frequently in the context I've brought up) would be welcome in my opinion. I recognize that opinions vary.

[rebeccajo 14]

just kiddin everybunny

That cat looks really pi$$ed off..............

[pushbrk 13,914]

An excellent choice of word.

I have only one word to share in response to this. Incorrigible!

I choose not to feel demeaned. "Feels bad" is a quote. Do you feel demeaned, Captain?

Well as long as it is just that, and not done to demean someone. Example. Note the bolded words in your reply.

I appreciate the whole of the level headed response. If you've actually seen anybody insult somebody for not speaking English well, that's one thing. When I mention English skill it is in the context of the need for somebody to have sufficient English skill to study guides, read carefully, interpret literally and determine how to answer accurately and honestly. I suggest that when neither the petitioner or beneficiary (it should be "nor") has enough skill in that area or it's apparent that if they have it they aren't using it, I suggest their chances of immigration success will be enhanced by obtaining the assistance or services of somebody willing and able to use the needed English language skill. If somebody "feels bad" (should be "badly") about their English skill as a result of my advice, that's one of their choices. The hope is they'll take appropriate action regardless of their feelings.

Opinions vary on my motives but they are opinions, often expressed for no other reason than to criticize and without adding anything of substance to an ongoing discussion. I'm going to help people as I think most effective. If it doesn't meet with your approval, you can certainly tell me so. If it's your judgment that the repeated personal attacks are within TOS, so be it. I think they make this a less helpful place. The bickering drives people away, negatively impacting the statistics on which I presume the advertising revenue is based. A private word now and then (more frequently in the context I've brought up) would be welcome in my opinion. I recognize that opinions vary.