Note: Removing Inactive members from the Org Team

[Captain Ewok 1,934]

It is not anything personal . I needed to cleanup either members who have not been active in a long time or those members that were not using the org abilities.

How about removing organizers for repeatedly violating TOS? No, I didn't think so. Nevermind.

I don't disagree actually. We can see how many (and for what) warnings members have had. If a member develops a pattern of being warned for problems or has a serious TOS violation then this is not a bad idea. That said, everyone makes a mistake from time to time and I understand that.

[pushbrk 14,106]

It is not anything personal . I needed to cleanup either members who have not been active in a long time or those members that were not using the org abilities.

How about removing organizers for repeatedly violating TOS? No, I didn't think so. Nevermind.

I don't disagree actually. We can see how many (and for what) warnings members have had. If a member develops a pattern of being warned for problems or has a serious TOS violation then this is not a bad idea. That said, everyone makes a mistake from time to time and I understand that.

When is the last time an organizer was "warned" for violating TOS? I'm sure I wouldn't know but I'm guessing it was longer ago than this evening. Yet, I've seen two of them from two different organizers tonight. One in this thread, if you're counting insulting other members.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Organizers are, we are told, regular members with special powers.

But those special powers are what sets them apart from us, the plebs of VJ.

I don't think most organizers quite understand that. They're not like us. They're higher up the VJ food chain than we are.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I agree. They are not us. If they were us, they wouldn't be organizers.

[Captain Ewok 1,934]

Organizers are, we are told, regular members with special powers.

But those special powers are what sets them apart from us, the plebs of VJ.

I don't think most organizers quite understand that. They're not like us. They're higher up the VJ food chain than we are.

Valid points. I am very clear with the mods that they should keep in mind their position when posting as it will reflect on themselves and the site. Abuse of power would result in a moderator potentially losing their position. I have not considered this as much with the organizers because they can not "suspend" or close topics -- however being able to move things does exert a degree of control I have probably underestimated.

I certainly am open to ideas that challenge the way I perceive things and in this case I agree and think you are right on some of the posts in this Thread. As a result I am going to implement the following new rules for organizers:

1) If an organizer is suspended for anything beyond the most casual of items (we all do stupid little things now and again) their Organizer status will be removed for no shorter then 60 days before we will consider reinstating it. Further suspensions (if reinstated) will result in no longer being able to be an Organizer.

2) When an Organizer moves a topic they will now be asked to post a reason why it was moved (this was informally a requirement before). I understand that some times people will forget however this is how things "need" to be done out of courtesy to members and to help clarify why things were moved.

3) If an Organizer moves a topic out of spite or otherwise abuses their power their Organizer status will be removed for no shorter then 60 days before we will consider reinstating it. Further abuse (if reinstated) will result in no longer being able to be an Organizer.

I will be PM'ing this to all the active Org Members and to all the Moderators (so that they are aware). I hope this seems reasonable and helps with your concerns.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Sounds good.

[jodee 30]

wow,..i am aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallways here,...but have only moved threads on maybe 5 occasions,...and have never been warned or suspended.

TY!,...

[Captain Ewok 1,934]

I have notified ALL Org Team members regarding the new rules. They are effective immediately.

[jodee 30]

All understood Cap'n.....thank you for all your hard work also!

[pushbrk 14,106]

I have notified ALL Org Team members regarding the new rules. They are effective immediately.

I don't see a problem with how organizers move things around. I'd like to see no more personal attacks on members by organizers. That was the point. That's what reflects badly on the ownership, IMO. I'm disappointed you didn't see fit to address that issue.

[Captain Ewok 1,934]

I have notified ALL Org Team members regarding the new rules. They are effective immediately.

I don't see a problem with how organizers move things around. I'd like to see no more personal attacks on members by organizers. That was the point. That's what reflects badly on the ownership, IMO. I'm disappointed you didn't see fit to address that issue.

I actually have (just did not post here). An hour or so ago I left a note for the moderators that Org Team members should be treated as Members and given no perks (so to speak). I do not think that this was the case before but I wanted to put it in writing. I told the Moderators to notify me if they saw any of the new rules broken and I would take care of it from there (members can notify me too).

I do think I see your point however. It has to do with "gray". More specifically the TOS is sometimes subjective so there are "gray" areas that people can operate in. People being rude or brash (to a degree) is part of being an adult and having to learn to deal with it. We can not be the moral police and there is an expectation that this is a site for adults. That said, this is a family immigration site so there are some limits (see TOS). The "gray" area w.r.t the TOS is clearly smaller for moderators so they should be much more careful on how they interact with members to at all costs avoid a perceived (or real) conflict of interest. Finally for me the gray is much more narrow (and in fact because of this I seldom post in anything but site related topics, moderation issues, or an occasional off topic innocent thread).

The other point I have considered is that Org Team members do not (and are never responsible for) interpreting the TOS. Ultimately that is up to the admin of VJ and the Moderators (of which their decisions, if disagreed with by anyone, can be petitioned to the admin to be reviewed). Because an Organizer does not interpret or act upon the TOS there is in my mind a very large difference between them and a moderator. That said, there can always be a perception by members that because they have the title "Organizer" in their profile that they are somehow something "more" than is truly intended. Originally I wanted to add the title to the Org Team's profiles as a sort of recognition of their kind efforts to volunteer time to help keep the forums organized. I still think that this is important to do (to thank them like this) but maybe there is a better way that would not raise an incorrect perception.

Again if an Org Team member misuses their "extra" feature (to move threads) or violates the TOS they will lose that ability.

...and after rambling on I am also comfortable asking the Moderation team to slightly narrow the gray area for Org Team members (but not nearly as much as Moderators or myself). Generally a nice reminder when needed is enough. The bottom line is that IMO any Org Team member that wishes to "flaunt" or tries to leverage their title (or moving ability) for personal gain should not be a part of the Org Team.

[Captain Ewok 1,934]

personal attacks on members by organizers

If you see this please use the report tool. Myself and all the moderators will be notified. Personal attacks of any consequence are a violation of the TOS and under the new rules will potentially end up causing an Org Team member to be removed from that user group.

[pushbrk 14,106]

personal attacks on members by organizers

If you see this please use the report tool. Myself and all the moderators will be notified. Personal attacks of any consequence are a violation of the TOS and under the new rules will potentially end up causing an Org Team member to be removed from that user group.

Well, anybody reading this thread saw one of the personal insults directed at me and can clearly see the difference in your response and theirs. I suppose it would be too much to ask of the moderators to remove from sight the personal attack posts or portions thereof while dealing with the attackers, but I think it would set a far better example than leaving them for all to read in perpetuity.

Anyway, thanks for your willingness to address the issue publicly. I'll look forward to a swift change in behavior from those who know or don't know who they are. For what it's worth, I never saw this as any sort of abuse of power. I see it as holding people to an appropriate standard, wrt the terms of service. Whether intended or not, the members see the organizers as examples of what is acceptable behavior.

[rebeccajo 14]

personal attacks on members by organizers

If you see this please use the report tool. Myself and all the moderators will be notified. Personal attacks of any consequence are a violation of the TOS and under the new rules will potentially end up causing an Org Team member to be removed from that user group.

Well, anybody reading this thread saw one of the personal insults directed at me and can clearly see the difference in your response and theirs. I suppose it would be too much to ask of the moderators to remove from sight the personal attack posts or portions thereof while dealing with the attackers, but I think it would set a far better example than leaving them for all to read in perpetuity.

Anyway, thanks for your willingness to address the issue publicly. I'll look forward to a swift change in behavior from those who know or don't know who they are. For what it's worth, I never saw this as any sort of abuse of power. I see it as holding people to an appropriate standard, wrt the terms of service. Whether intended or not, the members see the organizers as examples of what is acceptable behavior.

Pushbrk, you need to learn that you reap what you sow. Remember what Ewok said above about being an adult? You certainly have no problem with beating people about the head for everything from their signature size to their ability to speak English. And all in the name of so-called 'straight talk'. Not to mention the fact that you seem to have a particular problem with females who might know a thing or two as evidenced last week by your joining in with some of the other little boys to have a go at me.

If you can't take it when people give it back to you, then maybe you better re-think your style.

Just for the record, the fact that I am an Organizer has nothing to do with the way I address you. I'd do the same if I were not. You are not a straight-talker. You are rude PLUS you give an entirely new meaning to the word 'pompous'. As long as you continue to be, you can expect to get it back.

[pushbrk 14,106]

personal attacks on members by organizers

If you see this please use the report tool. Myself and all the moderators will be notified. Personal attacks of any consequence are a violation of the TOS and under the new rules will potentially end up causing an Org Team member to be removed from that user group.

Well, anybody reading this thread saw one of the personal insults directed at me and can clearly see the difference in your response and theirs. I suppose it would be too much to ask of the moderators to remove from sight the personal attack posts or portions thereof while dealing with the attackers, but I think it would set a far better example than leaving them for all to read in perpetuity.

Anyway, thanks for your willingness to address the issue publicly. I'll look forward to a swift change in behavior from those who know or don't know who they are. For what it's worth, I never saw this as any sort of abuse of power. I see it as holding people to an appropriate standard, wrt the terms of service. Whether intended or not, the members see the organizers as examples of what is acceptable behavior.

Pushbrk, you need to learn that you reap what you sow. Remember what Ewok said above about being an adult? You certainly have no problem with beating people about the head for everything from their signature size to their ability to speak English. And all in the name of so-called 'straight talk'. Not to mention the fact that you seem to have a particular problem with females who might know a thing or two as evidenced last week by your joining in with some of the other little boys to have a go at me.

If you can't take it when people give it back to you, then maybe you better re-think your style.

Just for the record, the fact that I am an Organizer has nothing to do with the way I address you. I'd do the same if I were not. You are not a straight-talker. You are rude PLUS you give an entirely new meaning to the word 'pompous'. As long as you continue to be, you can expect to get it back.

This is a perfect example of a "personal" insult. It's not about an issue. It's about a person. As such it's out of line and IMO violates the terms of service. It also sets the example that such posts are accepted by the mods because they continue to allow such personal insults and attacks without admonishment. People may not like my direct style and they may "feel" put down by my pointed advice about how to have a successful visa process but you will not see me directly personally insulting them.

Disagreeing with a woman is allowed. If any boys "had a go at you" last week, it was because of what you wrote, not because a woman wrote it and anybody who wishes can compare the personal attacks in your posts to the disagreements about issues in mine. Of course, the Captain or any Mod is free to let me know if they have a problem with anything I do here. When and if that happens, I'll respond accordingly. In the meantime, it is my understanding it's not YOUR job to do so with insults and other personal attacks. If I'm wrong about this, I encourage the Captain to tell me so, here and now.

It's not up to me but if it were, your membership would be cancelled for blatant repeated violations of TOS.

Edited December 21, 2008 by pushbrk