Shooting of theft suspects may test self-defense law

[peejay 327]

Shooting of theft suspects may test self-defense law

By RUTH RENDON and PEGGY O'HARE

2007 Houston Chronicle

In a case legal experts say may "stretch the limits" of the state's self-defense laws, a Pasadena man shot and killed two suspected burglars during a confrontation as they attempted to flee his neighbor's property Wednesday afternoon.

In the minutes before the fatal shootings, Pasadena police said the man called 911 and reported that he had heard glass breaking next door and saw two men entering the home through a window. Still on the phone with police, the man, believed to be in his 70s, saw the suspects leaving from the back of the home.

"I'm getting my gun and going to stop them," the neighbor told the dispatcher during the 2 p.m. call, according to Vance Mitchell, a spokesman for Pasadena police. "The dispatcher said, 'No, stay inside the house; officers are on the way.'

"Then you hear him rack the shotgun. The next sound the dispatcher heard was a boom. Then there was silence for a couple of seconds and then another boom."

After the shotgun blasts, the telephone line went dead. But the neighbor called police again and told a dispatcher what he had done.

When police arrived moments later, they found two dead men in the 7400 block of Timberline Drive. One was across the street, and the other had collapsed two houses down behind a bank of mailboxes in the Village Grove East subdivision.

Up to the grand jury

Police said the neighbor, whose name was withheld Wednesday, appeared calm as he retraced his steps for police.

"He was well composed and knew what he was doing," Mitchell said. "He was protecting the neighbor's property."

It will be up to a Harris County grand jury to decide if the man committed a crime by opening fire, police said.

Wednesday's shooting "clearly is going to stretch the limits of the self-defense law," said defense attorney Tommy LaFon, who is also a former Harris County prosecutor.

If the absent homeowner tells police that he asked his neighbor to watch over his property, that could play in his favor, LaFon said.

"If the homeowner comes out and says, 'My neighbor had a greater right of possession than the people trying to break in,' that could put him (the gunman) in an ownership role," LaFon said.

The Texas Penal Code says a person can use force or deadly force to defend someone else's property if he reasonably believes he has a legal duty to do so or the property owner had requested his protection.

The neighbor, however, would have been on much safer legal ground if he had been trying to protect his own property, LaFon said.

Failed to stop

Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett said the neighbor told investigators that he knew the next-door residents were not home. The man told investigators that he encountered the pair when they exited his neighbor's through a gate leading to the front yard.

Corbett said the neighbor asked the men, one of which was carrying a white bag, to stop, but they did not.

When police arrived the shooter was sitting on the ground and appeared to be very upset, Corbett said. "There was some discussion about calling an ambulance for him," Corbett said.

As of noon Thursday, no charges had been filed, Corbett said.

The shooter was very cooperative with police and lead officers though a run-through of what happened at the scene and later made a statement at the police station.

The white bag one the dead men had been carrying contained a large amount of cash that had apparently been taken from the house, Corbett said.

Two windows in the back of the house had been broken, one possibly as an entrance and the other as an exit, Corbett said. One was a regular window, but the other was translucent glass blocks. It was the sound of breaking glass that alerted the shooter, Corbett said.

Police have not found the families of the dead men, who both are in their 30's. One had identification indicating he was from Puerto Rico, the other had paper indicating he may have been from Puerto Rico, Colombia or the Dominican Republic, he said.

Both men were shot once at a range of less than 15 feet with blasts from a 12-guage shotgun.

The neighbor fired twice. One shot struck one of the suspected burglars in the chest, and the other was struck on the side.

Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect their own property to stop an arson, burglary, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night, or to prevent someone committing such a crime at night from escaping with the property.

But the person using deadly force must believe there is no other way to protect their belongings and must suspect that taking less drastic measures could expose themselves or others to serious danger.

A state senator who authored a law passed this year giving Texans stronger rights to defend themselves with deadly force said he did not believe the legislation he spearheaded would apply to the Pasadena case, based on the sketchy facts that have emerged so far.

Sen. Jeff Wentworth, a San Antonio Republican, said the so-called castle doctrine law he wrote doesn't apply to people protecting their neighbors' property.

The measure "is not designed to have kind of a 'Law West of the Pecos' mentality or action," Wentworth said. "You're supposed to be able to defend your own home, your own family, in your house, your place of business or your motor vehicle."

A quiet neighborhood

On Wednesday afternoon, other residents were stunned to exit their homes to find police cars and yellow crime scene tape

Lacey Hernandez, who lives one block from the shooting, was home when she heard two loud pops, but couldn't identify the noise. A short time later, she was leaving to pick up her children from school when she noticed the police cars.

"I was in shock because I never heard a gunshot before," Hernandez said.

She described her neighborhood as very quiet. The subdivision is lined with two-story brick homes with trees in the front yards.

"We leave our garage door open," she said. "We let the kids run the streets just like nothing. Now they will not be playing in the streets."

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/5303222.html

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The Texas Penal Code says a person can use force or deadly force to defend someone else's property if he reasonably believes he has a legal duty to do so or the property owner had requested his protection.

I'd like to know how they define property... like what if some guy comes and grabs the soda out of my hand? Seems a bit overkill to be able to use deadly force to protect a thing. No thing is worth taking a human life for it.

[Jaseball 0]

You'd be screwed in California. You can shoot a burglar in your own home, but only if in fear of your life. If the guy has his back turned, runs out the door, is stealing your car outside, etc., he better have a weapon and come after you first before shooting.

Also, if you shoot someone in California in self defense it is probably better if you kill them vs., grave injury where they can sue you.

Seeing a suspected burglar next door, calling 911, then arming yourself, crossing the street and killing two unarmed thieves would pretty much send you to prison for a long, long time out here.

[Drew and Tik 0]

Yeah, I definitely don't feel bad for the burglars, but that would not fly in New York at all. Texas has pretty lax gun laws though, which can be good and bad. Don't know if he would get away with that in this part of the country, and really I don't know if he should. I mean he basically murdered two people because of property, if he thought his neighbors were home it might be different, but he said he knew they weren't. He murdered two worthless shitheads, yes, but his life wasn't threatened in any way, it's definitely not "self-defense."

[peejay 327]

The Texas Penal Code says a person can use force or deadly force to defend someone else's property if he reasonably believes he has a legal duty to do so or the property owner had requested his protection.

I'd like to know how they define property... like what if some guy comes and grabs the soda out of my hand? Seems a bit overkill to be able to use deadly force to protect a thing. No thing is worth taking a human life for it.

I'm sure it depends on whether the guy kicks in your front door to take the soda from you or does it while you're sitting in a chair next to a public sidewalk in front of your house. How it goes down makes a big difference.

In Texas there is a wider latitude for property owners to use deadly force at night as opposed to in daylight hours.

There are a lot of circumstances and fact weighing involved whether the county grand jury votes to indict or to "no bill" (not file charges) in a killing. For the most part if a Texas property owner confronts a thief in the act of theft at night and kills them, the property owner will in all probability not be charged in the killing. All they really have to say is "I was in fear of my life". Whether the thief was armed or not.

As for me...I wouldn't shoot a punk in the back running away with stuff stolen outside my house. It might be legal, but I wouldn't do it. If the guy broke into my house while I was at home...it's their azz. The use of deadly force depends on whether I felt threatened or in fear of harm. Fortunately, I've never been in that situation.

[desert_fox 32]

If you shoot someone in California, and he runs outside, make sure that you drag him back inside.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

If you shoot someone in California, and he runs outside, make sure that you drag him back inside.

Are some of you that trigger happy that you wouldn't flinch over the idea of shooting someone dead for robbing you?

[Scott & Lai 12]

If you shoot someone in California, and he runs outside, make sure that you drag him back inside.

I've had cops here tell me that.

[Scott & Lai 12]

If you shoot someone in California, and he runs outside, make sure that you drag him back inside.

Are some of you that trigger happy that you wouldn't flinch over the idea of shooting someone dead for robbing you?

Well, I don't have the idea of "shoot to kill" whatever the circumstance...it's "shoot to stop," and only if I feel my life or someone else's is endangered. If killing them becomes necessary to achieve that, then that's the perps problem, he made his choice. The Texas guy in the OP went too far, imo, especially considering the cops were on the way, and he wasn't threatened.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

If you shoot someone in California, and he runs outside, make sure that you drag him back inside.

Are some of you that trigger happy that you wouldn't flinch over the idea of shooting someone dead for robbing you?

Well, I don't have the idea of "shoot to kill" whatever the circumstance...it's "shoot to stop," and only if I feel my life or someone else's is endangered. If killing them becomes necessary to achieve that, then that's the perps problem, he made his choice. The Texas guy in the OP went too far, imo, especially considering the cops were on the way, and he wasn't threatened.

Ok, phew. I would not take comfort in taking someone else's life no matter the circumstances. I'd do what I'd have to do to save someone else's life or mine, but never because I think the perpetrator is scum. IMO, people's actions don't define the value of their life, which is irreducibly sacred.

[Drew and Tik 0]

If you shoot someone in California, and he runs outside, make sure that you drag him back inside.

Are some of you that trigger happy that you wouldn't flinch over the idea of shooting someone dead for robbing you?

Robbing and burglarizing are different. I would shoot anyone in a second for robbing me with a weapon, since you can easily articulate a fear for your life if someone has a gun, or even a screwdriver to your head.

If someone burglarized my house and I saw him running out with my TV I might chase him and arrest him, but I wouldn't be at all justified in shooting him in the back.

I'm sure you meant burglarize though, people tell me that all the time "My house just got robbed!" You can't rob a house or store, only a person. Like if someone breaks into a bank at night and steals the safe, it's a burglary. If they put a gun to the teller's face and demand the safe, it's a robbery. Law 101

Edited November 16, 2007 by Drew and Tik

[desert_fox 32]

If you shoot someone in California, and he runs outside, make sure that you drag him back inside.

Are some of you that trigger happy that you wouldn't flinch over the idea of shooting someone dead for robbing you?

It would make me shake my head and think...what a waste of a life...and totally unnecessary, but it was his choice. Especially a breakin robbery where they terrorize victims....I would have no problem.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

If you shoot someone in California, and he runs outside, make sure that you drag him back inside.

Are some of you that trigger happy that you wouldn't flinch over the idea of shooting someone dead for robbing you?

Robbing and burglarizing are different. I would shoot anyone in a second for robbing me with a weapon, since you can easily articulate a fear for your life if someone has a gun, or even a screwdriver to your head.

If someone burglarized my house and I saw him running out with my TV I might chase him and arrest him, but I wouldn't be at all justified in shooting him in the back.

I'm sure you meant burglarize though, people tell me that all the time "My house just got robbed!" You can't rob a house or store, only a person. Like if someone breaks into a bank at night and steals the safe, it's a burglary. If they put a gun to the teller's face and demand the safe, it's a robbery. Law 101

Ah, ok...

So if a transient, for example, approached me with a screwdriver and demanded money from me - if I'm packing, I could shoot him in self defense?

[Scott & Lai 12]

If you shoot someone in California, and he runs outside, make sure that you drag him back inside.

Are some of you that trigger happy that you wouldn't flinch over the idea of shooting someone dead for robbing you?

Robbing and burglarizing are different. I would shoot anyone in a second for robbing me with a weapon, since you can easily articulate a fear for your life if someone has a gun, or even a screwdriver to your head.

If someone burglarized my house and I saw him running out with my TV I might chase him and arrest him, but I wouldn't be at all justified in shooting him in the back.

I'm sure you meant burglarize though, people tell me that all the time "My house just got robbed!" You can't rob a house or store, only a person. Like if someone breaks into a bank at night and steals the safe, it's a burglary. If they put a gun to the teller's face and demand the safe, it's a robbery. Law 101

Ah, ok...

So if a transient, for example, approached me with a screwdriver and demanded money from me - if I'm packing, I could shoot him in self defense?

If you have no other option, such as running, and you have reason to believe that you will suffer harm if you don't shoot him, then yes.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

If you shoot someone in California, and he runs outside, make sure that you drag him back inside.

Are some of you that trigger happy that you wouldn't flinch over the idea of shooting someone dead for robbing you?

Robbing and burglarizing are different. I would shoot anyone in a second for robbing me with a weapon, since you can easily articulate a fear for your life if someone has a gun, or even a screwdriver to your head.

If someone burglarized my house and I saw him running out with my TV I might chase him and arrest him, but I wouldn't be at all justified in shooting him in the back.

I'm sure you meant burglarize though, people tell me that all the time "My house just got robbed!" You can't rob a house or store, only a person. Like if someone breaks into a bank at night and steals the safe, it's a burglary. If they put a gun to the teller's face and demand the safe, it's a robbery. Law 101

Ah, ok...

So if a transient, for example, approached me with a screwdriver and demanded money from me - if I'm packing, I could shoot him in self defense?

If you have no other option, such as running, and you have reason to believe that you will suffer harm if you don't shoot him, then yes.

I don't know if you remember that a similar incident happened with two bicycle police officers in LA years ago. A homeless woman came at the officers with a screwdriver. They shot her and killed her. The woman was in her 50's. To me that's using excessive force. I suppose one could say there was a potential threat of harm, but seriously, a homeless old woman with mental problems isn't going to be able to do much to a well trained officer.