A Love of America Turned Ugly [Photo Essay]

[Peikko 1,575]

The US has always had a strong identificaiton with national pride, more specifially the symbols of that pride. It's something that I have never quite understood, and I guess not being a USC I may never understand it. However, in my opinion, Americans are no more 'rabid' in their patriotism than they ever were.

Edited October 11, 2007 by Purple_Hibiscus

[no name 1]

I really wish there could be more balanced postings about politics on VJ. It only proves how divided our country is though. Does it always have to be so extreme left vs extreme right all the time? And making each other's candidates or who someone likes look like fools constantly? How about they all look like fools most of the time. It's getting ridiculous. I know that's off topic from this posting but it has to do with it. Let's all pick the most extreme and divisive info we can to fight each other with to make to other side or people who don't share our political views look stupid or "blinded".

Why do we feel the need to belittle ppl's opinions all the time. Why can't ppl debate without belittling? I guess that's impossible in politics. I get tired of getting involved in political threads because it's always the same story and the same ppl bickering. I can't wait until the freaking elections are over! Long way to go though.

the polarization does very little aside from getting the *other* side arguing back and the *same* side doing high fives. It's been few and far between that people walk away from these 'discussions' thinking, "that was an interesting point, I got something out of that discussion".

You're both right and I apologize for posting something that is very divisive. However, in the context of other posts lately, I thought it was in the same line. I would like to think that a White House photographer would offer an interesting perspective into the kind of patriotism that he sees at the WH.

Perhaps you could be part of the solution to the divisiveness rather than adding to it

Then actions need to be taken against the other side. One can only be BEAT DOWN so many posts.

I am not here to referee between the partisan sides. I am merely asking for everyone to chill a bit.

We've had one post from a liberal (excuse me if you are not, Steven) and tons from the *other* side. I very much take offense at singling out this ONE POST.

Dev come on - you suggested actions should be taken on the *other* side. I responded and asked for everyone to chill. I am not singling you out. Like I said - I am not refereeing sides.

Not singling me out, but this post is singled out. What happened in that offensive terrorist thread when those who objected were laughed at? Even when the OP said it was to STIR THE POT? Absolutely nothing.

I'm not asking you to referee, but to uphold the TOS.

[chri'stina 190]

I really wish there could be more balanced postings about politics on VJ. It only proves how divided our country is though. Does it always have to be so extreme left vs extreme right all the time? And making each other's candidates or who someone likes look like fools constantly? How about they all look like fools most of the time. It's getting ridiculous. I know that's off topic from this posting but it has to do with it. Let's all pick the most extreme and divisive info we can to fight each other with to make to other side or people who don't share our political views look stupid or "blinded".

Why do we feel the need to belittle ppl's opinions all the time. Why can't ppl debate without belittling? I guess that's impossible in politics. I get tired of getting involved in political threads because it's always the same story and the same ppl bickering. I can't wait until the freaking elections are over! Long way to go though.

the polarization does very little aside from getting the *other* side arguing back and the *same* side doing high fives. It's been few and far between that people walk away from these 'discussions' thinking, "that was an interesting point, I got something out of that discussion".

You're both right and I apologize for posting something that is very divisive. However, in the context of other posts lately, I thought it was in the same line. I would like to think that a White House photographer would offer an interesting perspective into the kind of patriotism that he sees at the WH.

Perhaps you could be part of the solution to the divisiveness rather than adding to it

Then actions need to be taken against the other side. One can only be BEAT DOWN so many posts.

I am not calling for any action against Steven. I don't think he's so unbalanced but is participating in a match where one side posts an extreme thing, and then the other does. He already commented on it and he is a kind person IMO and is willing to debate without insults. I think my post makes it's clear I was talking about both sides. Not one person or one side.

And for months these kinds of posts have been going on by both sides, not just one side. It's definitely not one sided.

[Alex+R 0]

I have not been following the latest VJ liberal catchphrase vs. conservative catchphrase battles, so forgive me if there's some context I'm missing here, but what exactly is extreme about this post?

[HAL 9000 96]

"Do people hate us for all that we have? You bet. And I'd bet most Americans never truly thought about that until after 9/11."

People don't usually hate out of the blue or for what we allow ourselves to do... but some politicians think that they can put hatred of freedom as a #1 reason for doing the most God-awful things to anyone that is different than they are. Then again, these are politicians, red or blue... in this particular turn, it was Mr. Bush.

A large inkling of self-reflection that came out of 9/11 has been insidiously replaced by an ever-present and near fanatical nationalism that feeds on ignorance to make itself even more than what it is. That was what the "bleeding heart liberals" complained about all the time before they were labeled as Anti-Americans by the same folks that previously labeled them as Reds and Commies back when the conflict was not with a bunch of Arabs that worked with the CIA but rather with an Ideology that did not represent a so-called Communist empire.

Fanatics need an enemy, and this time around the Arabs and a small fanatical fragment of a religion have proven to be the perfect target.

Looking at it on the bright side, our fanatics have found a new kind of fanatic to go after in response to those other fanatics trying to strike down our symbols in response to what they saw as an encroachment on their fanaticism by... here's the biggie... our fanatics and their buddies.

At least they're finding themselves all together on the fanatic Love Boat. Maybe though, they should just take fanatics like themselves along and not involve the entire freaking country in this love parade, since just like 9/11, nobody asked to be involved in one lie after another.

[Ban Hammer 14,652]

oh brother

[LaL 418]

I do uphold the TOS. This is an issue of sides. Period. No one is innocent. I am asking everyone to just relax a bit at this back & forth. Thanks

[one...two...tree 2,762]

A large inkling of self-reflection that came out of 9/11 has been insidiously replaced by an ever-present and near fanatical nationalism that feeds on ignorance to make itself even more than what it is. That was what the "bleeding heart liberals" complained about all the time before they were labeled as Anti-Americans by the same folks that previously labeled them as Reds and Commies back when the conflict was not with a bunch of Arabs that worked with the CIA but rather with an Ideology that did not represent a so-called Communist empire.

Well said.

[no name 1]

The US has always had a strong identificaiton with national pride, more specifially the symbols of that pride. It's something that I have never quite understood, and I guess not being a USC I may never understand it. However, in my opinion, Americans are no more 'rabid' in their patriotism than they ever were.

Interesting article, altho it is 2 years old...

Poll: U.S. patriotism continues to soar

Years after 9/11, fervor stays high across racial, religious, political lines

By Michael E. Ross

Updated: 5:54 a.m. PT July 4, 2005

Whether or not "patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel," as the British writer Samuel Johnson observed more than 200 years ago, it may be the first refuge of a broad cross-section of modern-day Americans, regardless of their ethnicity, religion or political affiliation.

On this all-American holiday, the nationalistic impulse among Americans remains strong almost four years after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States, according to a recent poll.

The poll, conducted by the Roper Reports unit of NOP World, is based on personal and telephone interviews over several years. It found that 81 percent of Americans believed patriotism is "in," meaning it is an important factor in their individual identities, compared with 14 percent of Americans who believed patriotism is "out."

The Roper/NOP poll found the gap was the widest since 1991, after the first Persian Gulf War, and far wider than during the mid- to late 1990s.

"That [patriotism] appears so long after the period of frenzied flag-waving following 9/11 suggests that it is settling in as a fixture of American perceptions," according to Roper Reports.

Sept. 11 as pivot point

The poll was released in April, but even accounting for recent reverses in the Iraq war and the relative imprecision of such terms as "in" and "out," the findings hold, said Cary Silvers, NOP World vice president of consumer trends. "As far as relevance, the story remains the same," he said.

The events of Sept. 11 were apparently the catalyst.

"We tracked patriotism, spirituality and religion, and giving to charities and volunteerism right after 9/11," Silvers said. "All three popped up. Within about nine months, volunteering was down and so was religion, but what has stayed with us is patriotism, and it's obviously fueled by a couple of things. The shift point was 9/11."

The survey found that "eight in 10 Americans of all ages and income groups, from all regions of the country, say patriotism is in."

Sentiment spans races, generations

The poll also found that, African Americans and Hispanics are among those most inclined to have patriotic feelings. The survey found "virtually no difference between blacks' views and those of the nation as a whole."

Eighty percent of black Americans and 78 percent of Hispanics strongly identify themselves as patriotic, as well as 81 percent of white Americans, the poll found.

Some 87 percent of baby boomers — the bloc of Americans demographers generally consider born between 1946 and 1964 — said patriotism is a central identifying fact of their lives. Seventy-eight percent of Generation Xers, born between 1965 and 1980, felt the same way.

Vietnam hangover

Some of today's patriotism also appears to be driven by the Iraq conflict and the memory of the nation's experience in Vietnam. "This country had a huge reckoning with the days of Vietnam and attitudes toward our soldiers. Every baby boomer internally promises never to let something like that happen again," Silvers said.

He noted how respondents to the poll made a distinction between those sent to fight the war and those who sent them. "We have a tremendous dichotomy today where there will be unmatched support for our troops but a questioning of our leaders," he said.

For Silvers, the overall findings point to a stronger, almost obstinate sense of the collective American identity. "Now you've got a new world order where America is the bad guy, and if anything fuels patriotism, that's it," he said.

"It goes to the adage that we can say something about our family, but outsiders can't," he said.

Agreeing to disagree, with pride

The pattern of support remains consistent, even allowing for distinctions along the great divide of politics. The survey found that "only 2 points separate the shares of Democrats from Republicans and liberals from conservatives."

"What's interesting is how unifying the concept of patriotism is today," Silvers said. "All groups in red states or blue states lay claim to it. We're a country that agrees to disagree, but the overriding theme all groups can claim is that they're doing it out of patriotism."

source

© 2007 MSNBC Interactive

Edited October 11, 2007 by devilette

[Peikko 1,575]

"American perceptions" being the key.

How Americans see themselves and their increased patriotism is actually quite a different thing from someone looking at it from the outside. I don't see much difference pre and post 9/11. However, carry on.

[no name 1]

"American perceptions" being the key.

How Americans see themselves and their increased patriotism is actually quite a different thing from someone looking at it from the outside. I don't see much difference pre and post 9/11. However, carry on.

But do you live in America now? If so, I'm curious how you feel about it now, from the inside.

I was disputing your point:

However, in my opinion, Americans are no more 'rabid' in their patriotism than they ever were.

[Peikko 1,575]

My perception is that it is no worse than it ever was. When I say from the outside, I am talking as a non USC not as being physically outside the US. However, interestingly, since I have lived here, I am probably more 'forgiving' of this US quirk than I was when I lived abroad.

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

Gee, maybe people could address and refute the particular points in Morris' commentary rather than just insult Steven.

Sheesh.

Sheesh is right,practicing what you preach might be a good place to start

[no name 1]

My perception is that it is no worse than it ever was.

But the study says patriotism is higher (more rabid)?

[Jenn! 918]

Gee, maybe people could address and refute the particular points in Morris' commentary rather than just insult Steven.

Sheesh.

Sheesh is right,practicing what you preach might be a good place to start

In fact, I do.