The jinx of the north

[Stabu 0]

That is often a side-effect of too much schooling.

Precisely !

Master's degrees and PhD's are all, by and large, burned out. If you can work a couple years before chasing down the PhD, do it, just for your own mental health.

I don't think I will ever study full time after I immigrate. The question in my case is if I ever wanna study anything at all in a formal environment again or not (of course life in itself is a never ending learning process ). In any case I'll be going to study all the rest part time. It's rather sad that currently the only joy I take in university studies is my philosophy classes, since in there I can argue totally meaningless things like what's the concept of a concept for instance .

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So, you are saying that your degree has no value, that it doesn't represent anything in terms of your ability to process information, constuct arguments, evaluate abstract thought?

What kind of degree was it anyway?

It was a BA in Journalism and Communications, but essentially a collection of humanities courses.

I wouldn't say it has no value, clearly it does as a passport to certain entry-level jobs that would otherwise be out of reach to someone without significant vocational experience. And critical thinking? Well... I'd say I learned more by widening my reading range.

Still my friends and I, in our late teens were able to secure consistent 2.1 grade scores (UK classification) by, in my case, not picking up the books to an assignment until the night before the essay was due; and my friends doing their final year dissertation over the course of a 3-day weekend.

I can hardly say the course was challenging... In fact, I found my college A-Levels (pre-university qualifications) to be more difficult.

[Caladan 19]

I wouldn't say that my university education was worthless, but I think that what a university B.Whatever. degree stands for is mostly 'that you're the right sort of people we can hire' rather than 'I actually mastered this area.' or even 'I have a good work ethic.' Even in the hard sciences and engineering, quite a lot what you learn doesn't transfer to a job, academic or otherwise.

Nor should it, really. A liberal education was never meant to be a trade school. Historically it's the provenance of the rich. I'd much rather see a system where a smart high school kid would be accepted by a Wall Street firm to start work rather than requiring the Ivy League or similar pedigree, to say nothing of the average joe needing a degree in Communications to get a basic office job. But I think that ship to Fairy Land has sailed, so to speak.

[Stabu 0]

Ok, the idea that universities are becoming obsolete is totally new to me, would you care to explain that one?

Well, the universities began originally because hiring private teachers was cheaper than purchasing books. The value of the university was based on the information obtainable from it. Currently we are starting to see free electric easily readable (not from your computer screen that is) electronic books. Knowledge is also becoming obsolete quicker than ever before. I don't think that universities can survive in such an environment unless they would be heavily subsidized, as they currently are.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I am not sure, but I get the feeling that there might be a bit of throwing the baby out with the bath water going on here. While the Finnish education system may not be perfect (and after all, show me a perfect system anywhere) it's imperfections could be addressed, no? A system where the students come out with an education and without vast amounts of debt has to be a good thing, at least that is my opinion.

It also seems to be somewhat of a sweeping statement to say that most high level education is 'complete rubbish'. How can this possibly make any sense? What do you really mean by this statement? Is it that you don't see an quantifiable 'end product' in terms of employablity? Of are you suggesting that those that complete a university education are no better educated than those who leave school at 16 having failed to gain any qualifications?

It is certainly true that there is a difference between acedemic education and being street savy, but the two are not interchangeble in any meaningful way.

To be honest I am somewhat nonplussed that anyone would seriously argue that higher education is boderline waste of time .

Well said.

[Peikko 1,575]

I thought Universities were principally about research and that educating the wealthy was a bi product...I am willing to admit that I don't know enough about it though. However, should research still be something that is valued then I would venture to suggest that Universities will survive for a while yet.

[Dan J 277]

I wouldn't say that my university education was worthless, but I think that what a university B.Whatever. degree stands for is mostly 'that you're the right sort of people we can hire' rather than 'I actually mastered this area.' or even 'I have a good work ethic.' Even in the hard sciences and engineering, quite a lot what you learn doesn't transfer to a job, academic or otherwise.

Nor should it, really. A liberal education was never meant to be a trade school. Historically it's the provenance of the rich. I'd much rather see a system where a smart high school kid would be accepted by a Wall Street firm to start work rather than requiring the Ivy League or similar pedigree, to say nothing of the average joe needing a degree in Communications to get a basic office job. But I think that ship to Fairy Land has sailed, so to speak.

For many people, higher education is really learning how to learn. Fields are always changing, especially ones related to technology. If you only know what you learn in collage and don't keep up with the field, you will find yourself unable to continue working in the field after awhile.

Some people know this out of high school, but without a degree or work experience of some kind, the person in HR reading the resumes will just toss it. If you get 1000 resume for a job posting, you are looking for anything you can to throw the resume away.

I don't think education is in anyway obsolete. But it is being purposed in ways that don't really fit the system. There are some fields that really require a doctorate to be able to contribute to them. There are other fields that are dependent on a persons creative talent, something that really cannot be taught. An education in those fields is all about networking and further developing your talents and portfolio.

In fact really, the biggest benefit of education is not really the education itself, but the ability to create networking connections in your field. Its the only place where you are with other people who are in your field or will be in your field. The relationships created can be very valuable in getting internships and finding work after you graduate. Not to mention some of the best jobs are never posted, but found through networking. Not many people take advantage of this, and may feel that their education was worthless because of it.

[Dan J 277]

Ok, the idea that universities are becoming obsolete is totally new to me, would you care to explain that one?

Well, the universities began originally because hiring private teachers was cheaper than purchasing books. The value of the university was based on the information obtainable from it. Currently we are starting to see free electric easily readable (not from your computer screen that is) electronic books. Knowledge is also becoming obsolete quicker than ever before. I don't think that universities can survive in such an environment unless they would be heavily subsidized, as they currently are.

Information is one thing, but can you put a value on the professional relationships gained out of going to university? Where else do you have a gathering of people that are all part of a given field or aspiring to be part of it?

[Peikko 1,575]

Regarding undergraduate education, I am quite sure that, as with many things, the more you put into it, the more you get out. While you and your friends (@ Number6) may have been able to gain your degrees with the bare minimum of effort being afforded, many undergraduates put much more in, and get much more out.

Is it completely absurd to imagine that Universities still employ some highly intelligent, learned and intellectual proffessors and that engaging with them is going to enhance understanding more than simply reading books? Indeed, isn't one of the functions of a University education to learn to assemble and assess information in order to construct reasoned argument? Reading books does indeed expand one's knowledge base, but if you can't evaluate what you have read, you are merely storing a random hodge podge of facts/information.

[Peikko 1,575]

I guess my point is, where else does one get the opportunity learn and practice one's ability to process information?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I guess my point is, where else does one get the opportunity learn and practice one's ability to process information?

From my POV, my friends and I were already doing this vocationally anyway.

In my case I won't say that the knowledge was useless - that's perhaps a bit strong, but it wouldn't be inaccurate to suggest that the course wasn't particularly challenging. Anyone can pass an undergraduate degree with a bare minimum of effort and get at least an average grade (usually a 2.2).

As for lecturers, yes we had some talented people. But then again I'm reminded of one person in particular who taught a social science course related to interpersonal communication. In our first year (I dropped the unit after the first year) - the lecturer came across as quite intimidating, but what was worse was that she deliberately obscured what she was trying to teach with unnecessarily complex language. Given that we were learning about how people communicate it was somewhat ironic to be presented with lectures riddled with arcane language, presumably to make the material sound more intellectual than it really was.

That isn't to say the subject wasn't interesting, but when you peeled away the complex language (who uses "parsimonius" in a sentence when "simple" will do just as well?) and I discovered what she was selling, I wasn't interested in buying.

Then I learned some 2 years previously, that the woman had passed the exact same degree course she was now teaching on with a 2.2 (a very average classification).

As far as the rest of it went - I did learn a lot of theory about how the news media works as well as advertising and marketing theory, but I found that the best units on the course by far were the vocational ones. Still in the 8 years since leaving university I believe I've taught myself more than I ever learned doing that degree.

[Raspect 0]

Which current Republican Presidential Candidate is from the South?

It's a free-for-all...or John Edwards is our next president based on those statistics.

Try reading the story this time. No DEMOCRAT has been elected president that wasn't from the south. (except JFK)

ETA..

And BTW Thompson is conservative AND from the south. I think some surprises are in order next year.

AND he has a pretty RED TRUCK, have you seen his RED TRUCK?

[garya505 2]

Which current Republican Presidential Candidate is from the South?

It's a free-for-all...or John Edwards is our next president based on those statistics.

Try reading the story this time. No DEMOCRAT has been elected president that wasn't from the south. (except JFK)

ETA..

And BTW Thompson is conservative AND from the south. I think some surprises are in order next year.

AND he has a pretty RED TRUCK, have you seen his RED TRUCK?

Anybdoy got a link to a photo of Fred's RED TRUCK?