Prenuptial agreement - anyone else do one?

[ladywhite 0]

Of course there are exceptions, that's a given. The book "Thailand Fever" goes along with my experiences and others too. Were you raised in Isaan? What I've said is from friends who lived, worked, and married in Thailand. And from the books too. And my experience too. Not judging or intending to make blanket statements. But you are the first Thai I've talked to who hasn't aknowledged lying as a normal part of interpersonal communication there.

why did you ask if i was raised in Isaan? the question leads me to believe that you may very well have your most experience with Isaan people -- a specific group of people "with certain socioeconomic status."

no, i am not one of Issan people.

do you think it sounds right to say that somebody would lie "as a normal part of interpersonal communication"? you didn't talk about just 'somebody' but Thai as a whole. does it sound right? that is too extreme.

of course, i don't acknowledge that lying is a normal part of interpersonal communication here. if that was true, why would anyone want to have anything to do with Thais? i hate lies and accusation.

if you are aware that there are exceptions, then make your statements to reflect that. you said you didn't intend to make blanket statements but you just did so -- again.

i didn't want to interrupt the flow of your original thread. please try to keep it within the context of you and your wife, not Thais in general.

[Fandango 1,440]

Are you a 'channel of God's peace' when you say things like "Thais lie'

?

How would your wife feel about that if she heard you say it?

Do you understand Thais? They lie to save face, to avoid conflict, and to take the easier path. It's different from western mores, but a fact. I just didn't know it would root itself in a husband-wife relationship so deeply.

Read the book "Thailand Fever" and you will understand - I wish I had read it earlier. I read others, "Thailand, Culture Shock" etc. that deal more with general society and work, not primary relationships.

Are you marrying a Thai LisaD?

Nope, I'm not.

But I wonder how you can pledge 'til death us do part' with that kind of thinking towards your wife and her culture. I don't know every single Thai, so I'd never say things like 'all of them lie' etc. I do happen to have several Thai friends who would be very insulted by your comment. And I wouldn't be friends with them if I didn't think highly of them and believe what you're saying to be an incorrect generalization....nope, I wouldn't be friends...let alone marry.

It does make me sad to think that you have married a woman yet you don't seem to respect her and trust her. I wish you good luck and hope your wife proves you wrong.

Edited August 26, 2007 by LisaD

[ding 1]

My wife is Isaan and under working class pressures. You write as a native English speaker. So maybe you are uni educated or raised in the west. That's why I ask. My wife has the classic societal pressures that everyone I know, all my experience, and all that I've read, talks about. Again, Exceptions are a given.

It sounds wrong to say people lie

as a normal part of interpersoanl communication to westerners. But why

do all the Thai people I speak to aknowlege it as a matter of fact.

And westerners who live(d), work(ed) there, and speak/read Thai

-all aknowledge it.

They do so with acceptance and in a spirit of multi-cultural understanding. Not many are stuck in judging this as bad, just different. And to warn against taking it too personally when it pops up in my relationship. Your experience may be different if brought up in high society or uni educated. I understand that. And there are enlightened people in all walks of life, obviously. I'm writing to a specific yet general audience and shorthanding past "any and all possible circumstances". You come close to accusing me of racism, as opposed to cultural understanding that I try to learn and understand. You could not be more wrong. I'm probably THE most non-prejudiced person you will ever come across in this spinning ball of mud.

My wife loves me. But a buddy's wife didn't love him and married him anyway. And they're fine today. So I'm okay, really. Miles ahead of many unsuspecting guys. My eyes are open and I have some wisdom born of pain. I'm just curious if others are taking prudent measures as well. If she wanted me for money the prenupt would have stopped our relationship in its tracks. And saved time in life, heartache, and even money.

I open my life up here a little bit.

Guys PM me asking me things. I'm glad to facilitate discussion. But I am not racist at all. I am not mysoginistic. I accept life as it is and all the peolple in it, just as they are. But I have a right to not be a victim too.

[ding 1]

Are you a 'channel of God's peace' when you say things like "Thais lie'

?

How would your wife feel about that if she heard you say it?

Do you understand Thais? They lie to save face, to avoid conflict, and to take the easier path. It's different from western mores, but a fact. I just didn't know it would root itself in a husband-wife relationship so deeply.

Read the book "Thailand Fever" and you will understand - I wish I had read it earlier. I read others, "Thailand, Culture Shock" etc. that deal more with general society and work, not primary relationships.

Are you marrying a Thai LisaD?

Nope, I'm not.

But I wonder how you can pledge 'til death us do part' with that kind of thinking towards your wife and her culture. I don't know every single Thai, so I'd never say things like 'all of them lie' etc. I do happen to have several Thai friends who would be very insulted by your comment. And I wouldn't be friends with them if I didn't think highly of them and believe what you're saying to be an incorrect generalization....nope, I wouldn't be friends...let alone marry.

It does make me sad to think that you have married a woman yet you don't seem to respect her and trust her. I wish you good luck and hope your wife proves you wrong.

I used to think like you, and that's a good way to think. I am 100% behind that. Then I had a gut feeling something was wrong. And my wife proved me right, actually. So I learned that what I had been told and what I had read applies to a primary relationship too. I forgave, try to be understanding, and learned to have acceptance.

I respect my wife very much and accept her just as she is. I love her unconditionally. And I'm not a victim and don't plan on being one.

As for lying, maybe the Thais I've known for 14 years going there, and farang I know living and working there - have all misinformed me in their attempt to educate me in cross-cultural understanding. Maybe the books are junk too. I'm open to new information. Her friends have told her, "need to tell true for westerners". Implying that westerners need a different approach. Maybe they're wrong too. -- her sisters too. Why would they stipulate that westerners need the truth instead of indirect or untrue statements?

And I didn't pledge ''til death do us part". We married in a Buddhist country. We did a family/Buddhist ceremony upcountry. Western paradigms don't apply. Her family is fairly progressive and I didn't have to pay the customary money to marry her, called sinsot. That was a big thing for me to come to an undrestanding and acceptance of. I am so opposed to that sort of thing... but I now accept it as part of her culture.

Edited August 26, 2007 by ding

[Fandango 1,440]

I used to think like you, and that's a good way to think. I am 100% behind that. Then I had a gut feeling something was wrong. And my wife proved me right, actually. So I learned that what I had been told and what I had read applies to a primary relationship too. I forgave, try to be understanding, and learned to have acceptance.

I respect my wife very much and accept her just as she is. I love her unconditionally. And I'm not a victim and don't plan on being one.

As for lying, maybe the Thais I've known for 14 years going there, and farang I know living and working there - have all misinformed me in their attempt to educate me in cross-cultural understanding. Maybe the books are junk too. I'm open to new information. Her friends have told her, "need to tell true for westerners". Implying that westerners need a different approach. Maybe they're wrong too. -- her sisters too. Why would they stipulate that westerners need the truth instead of indirect or untrue statements?

Look, please don't get defensive...and I appreciate that you have a vast amt of experience with Thais. That doesn't give you the right, really, to generalize about all Thai women being liars. If you want to believe this that or the other about your wife and her countrywomen, try not to paint them all with such a negative brush of being liars. I'm sure there are many petitioners here who would disagree with your statement.

As for respecting your wife...you really should ask yourself if you TRULY respect her...because don't respect and trust go hand in hand? How can you respect someone you feel you have to protect yourself and your 'assets' from? You mentioned you don't want to be a 'victim'....well in order for you to be a victim, your wife would be the perpetrator. Is that how you view her? So...and I'm really not trying to be argumentative here, but I am very curious....how does the thought process go to decide to marry someone you feel could make you a 'victim' if you don't protect yourself? To marry someone you can't trust? How do you know your wife isn't talking to 3 other men right now....IF she's a liar?

Did your wife prove herself untrustworthy and you're using the 'Thais are liars' as justification for excusing her behavior? Or does the hangup lie with you and your lack of ability to trust her? Or neither?

Edited August 26, 2007 by LisaD

[ladywhite 0]

Your experience may be different if brought up in high society or uni educated. I understand that.

that is the reason why you should not make a generalization !

i was not raised in the west, only in schools in the US for 8 years during my early 30s.

i have no itention to be argumentative or accusing of you being racist. that term wasn't on my mind at all. but how you said about thai sounded inappropriate and insensitve. my intention was for you to be careful in your statements about thai people. don't make a generalization when your experience with thai people is limited to just a certain segment of them.

i do not wish to continue talking about this matter anymore. i have said what i felt a need to.

[Lucas 0]

Can we jump back to the original thread: has anyone else considered or gone with a pre-nuptial? If so, what was your experience? If not, why did you decide against it?

[patricks 0]

I'll Generalize!

Point blank, Thai's and Vietnamese people often do not tell truth, especially to foreigners. They "flat out" lie or don't express true intentions in order to avoid confrontation, "save face" from embarrassment, or for personal gain. Majority of relationships between foreigners & local (Thais & VNs) are not successful (another generalization); however, if one learns some the culture & language, knows the wife's family, and then his chances for marital success greatly increase. Thus, I agree with Ding.........

Mind you, Isn't there a 50% divorce rate in America?

[chuckandkim 0]

ding, as opposed to patrick, should all of these comments are strictly viewed as your personal "opinions"?

or maybe, you are stereotyping the whole ethic group based on your limited experience with one group of people and a book?

Prenuptial agreement is an idea of protecting the unforeseen event that may bring you a lesser favorable result. No doubt! However, as some people mentioned here, why did you marry her in the first place if you don't trust her? Need a wife in a hurry? Talking of forgiving her as if you are her God giving me a chill sir! Somehow I feel you do like to be the one who takes charge of the relationship by holding a "I forgive you" power over this Thai woman. Personally, if everything you said is true, how she lies and unacceptable to your standard, then again: why are you marrying her?

[Ngoc-Anh 1]

This is a real hot topic!! I personally do not understand how a person can get marry to someone that he does not trust. Of course he say that he loves her but is this the only thing?? Think about that deeper. Why would a man go to the 3rd countries to find a wife?? It is just because modern women are not as easy to control. So the question here is should the woman not be more worried than the man? The woman is giving up her entire life to be with the man she loves and sorry for this expression but it sounds like she is treated like a piece of #######. She does not give up her life to be someones slave!!! Most of the cases I have read about where the "Thai" women are using their husband to get to the US....I have to say that the man is stupid enough to fall for that because if you would take your time to get to know the person better (and not decide to get marry so fast) than you do not have to worry that she is using you!

Of course the man got a reason to worry about this issue because reality is that there are that kind of person out there that uses the man but the man can control the situation!!

No offens to anybody....just my 2 cents!

[Jamie76 0]

This is a real hot topic!! I personally do not understand how a person can get marry to someone that he does not trust. Of course he say that he loves her but is this the only thing?? Think about that deeper. Why would a man go to the 3rd countries to find a wife?? It is just because modern women are not as easy to control. So the question here is should the woman not be more worried than the man? The woman is giving up her entire life to be with the man she loves and sorry for this expression but it sounds like she is treated like a piece of #######. She does not give up her life to be someones slave!!! Most of the cases I have read about where the "Thai" women are using their husband to get to the US....I have to say that the man is stupid enough to fall for that because if you would take your time to get to know the person better (and not decide to get marry so fast) than you do not have to worry that she is using you!

Of course the man got a reason to worry about this issue because reality is that there are that kind of person out there that uses the man but the man can control the situation!!

No offens to anybody....just my 2 cents!

So you are saying Thailand is a 3rd world country? That is pretty offensive.

[Lucas 0]

This is a real hot topic!! I personally do not understand how a person can get marry to someone that he does not trust. Of course he say that he loves her but is this the only thing?? Think about that deeper. Why would a man go to the 3rd countries to find a wife?? It is just because modern women are not as easy to control. So the question here is should the woman not be more worried than the man? The woman is giving up her entire life to be with the man she loves and sorry for this expression but it sounds like she is treated like a piece of #######. She does not give up her life to be someones slave!!! Most of the cases I have read about where the "Thai" women are using their husband to get to the US....I have to say that the man is stupid enough to fall for that because if you would take your time to get to know the person better (and not decide to get marry so fast) than you do not have to worry that she is using you!

Of course the man got a reason to worry about this issue because reality is that there are that kind of person out there that uses the man but the man can control the situation!!

No offens to anybody....just my 2 cents!

But your 2 cents are offensive. Are you implying that everyone in this forum is going to a 3rd world country (already a derogatory word) to find submissive women whom will obey our every command? Whether or not you meant it, your smugness is offensive to us and to the people of South East Asia. My fiancee would be hurt to know that many Americans, like yourself, hold these elitist stereotypes. How does a country's development status translate to the quality of a person? As far as I am concerned, it's not that simple. Perhaps you shouldn't apply your Western thinking to the rest of the world.

[Dan J 277]

This is a real hot topic!! I personally do not understand how a person can get marry to someone that he does not trust. Of course he say that he loves her but is this the only thing?? Think about that deeper. Why would a man go to the 3rd countries to find a wife?? It is just because modern women are not as easy to control. So the question here is should the woman not be more worried than the man? The woman is giving up her entire life to be with the man she loves and sorry for this expression but it sounds like she is treated like a piece of #######. She does not give up her life to be someones slave!!! Most of the cases I have read about where the "Thai" women are using their husband to get to the US....I have to say that the man is stupid enough to fall for that because if you would take your time to get to know the person better (and not decide to get marry so fast) than you do not have to worry that she is using you!

Of course the man got a reason to worry about this issue because reality is that there are that kind of person out there that uses the man but the man can control the situation!!

No offens to anybody....just my 2 cents!

So you are saying Thailand is a 3rd world country? That is pretty offensive.

Economically, Thailand is still considered a 3rd world country, though developing country is a better term.

[chuckandkim 0]

Don't lose the topic here is about Ding who wants to get married a Thai who lies and needs his forgiveness to come to America while Ding still maintains his wealth and riches by having a prenuptial agreement with this Thai woman!

Seem to me Ding has a little bit twisted reason and motive to marry. Making her feeling sorry, feeling as if she owes you for your grace and mercy because you have forgiven her for whatever she did to offend you, is NOT a good strong foundation to build your future upon. I do not know and will never do what she has done to disgrace you and to deserve this treatment and the mentality behind it!

To HappyOne,

Third world or first world, people are @$$holes, lie, cheat regardless of their social, demographical, geographical and economical background IF they are @$$HOLE by nature. There are a lot more @$$HOLES in 1st world than anywhere else! But you learn to accept them as a norm for they are everywhere... Ask your S.O. about lies and @$$holes in Germany, I am pretty sure there plenty of those over there too. However, I choose to focus on the goods and drill into it. I find goodness in the bad in people, and fight it out until they absolutely proven to me they are certifiable @$$, then it's their loss not mine to continue the path.

Bottomline is, thirdworld or not, being-an-@$$ is not only reserved for any particular group, people, ethnic background or part of the world. They are everywhere people!

[Ngoc-Anh 1]

Don't lose the topic here is about Ding who wants to get married a Thai who lies and needs his forgiveness to come to America while Ding still maintains his wealth and riches by having a prenuptial agreement with this Thai woman!

Seem to me Ding has a little bit twisted reason and motive to marry. Making her feeling sorry, feeling as if she owes you for your grace and mercy because you have forgiven her for whatever she did to offend you, is NOT a good strong foundation to build your future upon. I do not know and will never do what she has done to disgrace you and to deserve this treatment and the mentality behind it!

To HappyOne,

Third world or first world, people are @$$holes, lie, cheat regardless of their social, demographical, geographical and economical background IF they are @$$HOLE by nature. There are a lot more @$$HOLES in 1st world than anywhere else! But you learn to accept them as a norm for they are everywhere... Ask your S.O. about lies and @$$holes in Germany, I am pretty sure there plenty of those over there too. However, I choose to focus on the goods and drill into it. I find goodness in the bad in people, and fight it out until they absolutely proven to me they are certifiable @$$, then it's their loss not mine to continue the path.

Bottomline is, thirdworld or not, being-an-@$$ is not only reserved for any particular group, people, ethnic background or part of the world. They are everywhere people!

I do not want distinguish between poor country or rich country. It is just upsetting me how Ding is talking about his wife and her fellowmen.

If he got a problem with these people that are "so called" lier and cheaters....then he should not get marry to her!

I am myself asian and get here to the US. And trust me, I got that view all the time when it comes to the question: Where are you from?

My answer will be Germany because I am from Germany but people automatic assume that oriental people have to get marry to get to the US.

As if the US is the only wonderful country!

I just feel sorry for Dings wife that he got such a point of view!