Otto Warmbier dead; former US prisoner of North Korea was 22

[IAMX 3,055]

13 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Why do people in this thread assume that the 'I stole a poster' accusation and confession is true?

We have no evidence of it.

Why would they allow a bus full of tourists from China just to falsely accuse them of stealing stuff? 

 

And given how petty it is, it makes perfect sense.

 

I have no proof, of course, but there's been plenty of stories of Americans doing illegal stuff in other countries, stealing stuff, defacing religious/spiritual grounds, getting beaten or jailed for it, then the media plays this "woes me" card.

Edited June 20, 2017 by IAMX

[OriZ 3,165]

2 hours ago, Bill & Katya said:

It is sad for his family thanks to the poor medical care he received in the DPRK.  From what I understand it is already very difficult for US citizens to go to North Korea.  I had a chance to go several years ago when the Kaesong industrial area was still open, but I chose not to.  One day I would love to visit there, but only after reunification.  So far the closest I got was the tunnel under the DMZ which of course is blocked off several hundred meters from the actual border.

I would never go to countries like North Korea or Iran, unless they changed, because I simply don't trust them. I have always felt that way. I never felt I could trust them enough to not come up with some bogus excuse to put me in prison or worse. There's several other countries like this around the world I would never step foot in. I think his first mistake was even going there. Unfortunately, there are still some out there who are either oblivious, or don't care, or at times are simply on the other side(not saying he was, obviously). I think you made a good call by not going there. 

 

47 minutes ago, Mr&Mrs G. said:

The US should demand the immediate release of all US captives held by the North Korean government, if not stick a nice big missile down their throat. 

 

It's time for that regime to go, they are just barbaric. 

I agree that actions should be taken. It's funny because today when I heard about this all I could think was how everyone thought Trump would be irresponsible and cause WWIII, and thought to myself the mere fact we're not in WWIII today is because they were obviously wrong. So far he has been very responsible about this, probably moreso than most of us would like to be.

 

39 minutes ago, IAMX said:

I don't understand why people feel bad for this guy.

 

Yes, North Korea is terrible, they're brutal, and so on.

 

But this was an American visiting another country, as stupid as it looks, committing what they consider a serious crime. 

 

Even in his own country theft is a crime, why take such a stupid risk in a country like North Korea? Should be a Darwin award.

 

It's tragic, but this is all on Otto Wambier. No matter what country you're visiting, regardless of how much you agree or disagree with it, follow their laws and customs. If you don't, and wind up in jail, you have no one else to blame but yourself for what happens next.

When he first got arrested I agreed with you in a sense(see above). I thought A. Stupid to even go there and B.stupid to do what he did, if he actually did it. But there was also a C. and that's that it still doesn't justify what they did, and that it doesn't contrast having empathy in my view. And with him dead now, I don't see why anyone shouldn't feel bad for him and his family.

[IAMX 3,055]

5 minutes ago, OriZ said:

When he first got arrested I agreed with you in a sense(see above). I thought A. Stupid to even go there and B.stupid to do what he did, if he actually did it. But there was also a C. and that's that it still doesn't justify what they did, and that it doesn't contrast having empathy in my view. And with him dead now, I don't see why anyone shouldn't feel bad for him and his family.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's justified what they did whatsoever. But we expect visitors to follow our laws and customs, it's only fair we do the same to other countries Americans visit, no matter how petty it is (and this is petty as hell), no matter how heinous the current regime is (and they are quite). The other option -- don't go, seems like the default rational choice given the tensions between the US and NK. 

 

I wouldn't expect sympathetic news pieces if American visitors to Iraq walked out of the green zone and were caught having gay sex in Mosul and executed.. or maybe I should be. At some point, we gotta understand that other countries are not the US, and there are real dangers in doing stupid things, no matter how small we perceive it, especially outside the protection of our diplomats.

Edited June 20, 2017 by IAMX

[OriZ 3,165]

3 minutes ago, IAMX said:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's justified what they did whatsoever. But we expect visitors to follow our laws and customs, it's only fair we do the same to other countries Americans visit, no matter how petty it is (and this is petty as hell), no matter how heinous the current regime is (and they are quite). The other option -- don't go, seems like the default rational choice given the tensions between the US and NK.

Definitely, I just don't think a consequence of stupidity should necessarily be lack of empathy.

[yuna628 9,875]

9 minutes ago, IAMX said:

Why would they allow a bus full of tourists from China just to falsely accuse them of stealing stuff? 

 

And given how petty it is, it makes perfect sense.

Why do you believe the say so of a brutal dictator's regime accusations with a sham trial and forced confession, over the family who maintain their son was innocent and now murdered?

There was no evidence to suggest this man did anything wrong. His mistake was setting foot into the country in the first place, but he is one of millions who have been murdered by the regime for no reason other than because some sadists think it's fun.

Edited June 20, 2017 by yuna628

[IAMX 3,055]

Just now, yuna628 said:

Why do you believe the say so of a brutal dictator's regime accusations with a sham trial and forced confession, over the family who maintain their son was innocent and now murdered?

There was no evidence to suggest this man did anything wrong. His mistake was setting foot into the country in the first place, but he is one of millions who have been murdered by the regime for no reason other than because some sadists think it's fun.

Were his parents there? If not, why would they have any validity?

 

I'm not going to argue this aspect really because I (and everyone else) could easily be wrong, all we have to go on are assumptions based on limited information.

[IAMX 3,055]

9 minutes ago, OriZ said:

Definitely, I just don't think a consequence of stupidity should necessarily be lack of empathy.

I'm far too in-tune with the cold hard reality of life, alas.. seen too many videos on websites of people doing dumb things and getting killed for it. I'm pretty sure solo skydiving as a first timer, or wingsuit flying in the Alps as an amateur are safer than going to North Korea. Personally, I'd rather do the former two than visit there. I know I'd have absolutely no control of my own fate once I entered that country, never mind increasing the odds of a terrible one like the subject of our topic here by (allegedly) stealing from them.

Edited June 20, 2017 by IAMX

[yuna628 9,875]

13 minutes ago, IAMX said:

Were his parents there? If not, why would they have any validity?

 

I'm not going to argue this aspect really because I (and everyone else) could easily be wrong, all we have to go on are assumptions based on limited information.

Again why would you believe the words of a murderous dictator regime over that of an American citizen? There really isn't any assumptions here; there has never been any factual evidence presented, no innocent until proven guilty before a jury of his peers, and a forced confession for propaganda purposes as any dictator regime does to keep up appearances everything is just normal. You would rather believe that he died through punishment as a result of a crime a dictator regime says he committed and this somehow justifies the lack of empathy this argument presents. Evil doesn't need justification to murder innocents, but people do, in order to make it easier to subvert the masses.

 

I agree with Oriz, that the consequence of stupidity should not be a lack of empathy. The stupid thing was entering the country in the first place not a classic 'propaganda crime' used by typical dictators. But none of those who have been slaughtered by that regime deserve what they have suffered.

Edited June 20, 2017 by yuna628

[Dashinka 25,897]

6 hours ago, IAMX said:

I'm far too in-tune with the cold hard reality of life, alas.. seen too many videos on websites of people doing dumb things and getting killed for it. I'm pretty sure solo skydiving as a first timer, or wingsuit flying in the Alps as an amateur are safer than going to North Korea. Personally, I'd rather do the former two than visit there. I know I'd have absolutely no control of my own fate once I entered that country, never mind increasing the odds of a terrible one like the subject of our topic here by (allegedly) stealing from them.

This was the reason I chose not to go when I had the chance.  I for one have no idea why anyone would want to go to the DPRK as a tourist.  There are many much nicer and less dangerous places on this planet where you won't face potentially false charges simply due to the nationality of your passport.

[IAMX 3,055]

It's weird when I agree with a crazy leftist rag.. too bad they don't believe in following laws in the US..

 

Apparently devoid of any sympathy, Affinity Magazine is blaming the U.S. teen for his own death on Twitter.

“If you decide to go to North Korea then you have to respect their laws,” the magazine wrote on Monday. “Otherwise you better stay home.”

 

 

http://dailycaller.com/2017/06/20/affinity-magazine-aggressively-victim-blames-otto-warmbier/

 

tbh I don't understand why, for Americans, respecting a foreign country's laws and customs, or not going, is a tough concept. Pretty sure it's akin to mutual respect.