France Rejects Far Right

[OriZ 3,157]

15 minutes ago, IAMX said:

Immigrants choose to isolate themselves because of da evil rassists. I wonder if the left really believes this "everyone I oppose are racists" tactic still works in 2017.. or if they understand that they've beat this horse so beyond dead it has no effect outside their own circles. 

 

People elect not to assimilate, it has nothing whatsoever in 21st century western civilization to do with racism. I really do hope the left keep this up because all this tactic stands to do is alienate moderate leftists as well as moderates and independents in general.

[IAMX 3,055]

3 minutes ago, OriZ said:

I've been to Europe when things weren't even this bad yet(last time I was there was Provence in 2009) and I agree with you 100%.

Same here. And I've been over a rather large chunk of Europe refugees are trying to get to, and in turn making much worse with their issues assimilating. For this I blame leftist governments for being soft on this aspect. The result has been catastrophic and has led numerous countries to start disregarding Shengen and erect border barriers of their own.

[OriZ 3,157]

2 minutes ago, IAMX said:

Same here. And I've been over a rather large chunk of Europe refugees are trying to get to, and in turn making much worse with their issues assimilating. For this I blame leftist governments for being soft on this aspect. The result has been catastrophic and has led numerous countries to start disregarding Shengen and erect border barriers of their own.

Yeah I've been to 12 European countries, some more than once...each time was worse. I have to say though when I was in Paris 19 years ago I was stunned at how much Hebrew I heard spoken out in the open, I'm not sure I'd be hearing that today.

[yuna628 9,547]

46 minutes ago, CaliCat said:

 

You make two highly contestable claims, for which I am sure you can't offer evidence or any support.

 

1. The Irish didn't build America, or at least they didn't do it alone. We ALL built and continue to build America. Before the Irish, there were the slaves who made it possible that the riches of the land converted into wealth. Before the slaves, there were those who came here on ships with nothing but a dream, fleeing religious and political persecution in their own countries, not very differently from what the alt-right is proposing today. Add to that the native Americans who by any standard had already built their countries, before they were taken by the immigrants. And then there are the Asians and Europeans who flocked to our shores, not to mention the western Americans who found themselves in a new country as a border was built between what was once Mexico and then became America. Everyone built America. For better or worse, we continue to do so today.

 

2. The immigrants chose to isolate themselves. That is a fallacy that has no supporting evidence. What we do know is that racism in certain western European countries is all but statutory, so many immigrants found themselves in a situation of isolation in their new country, but that situation was imposed on them by the open class system in Britain, and the less-open class system in France. That is the lesson Europe must learn from America: immigration means getting to know people who are different and understanding that they are no worse because their skin is brown, black, or ashen, and whiteness makes no one superior or better.

 

Both your claims show a deeper underlying assumption, that there really is "us" and "them." That is something that we must not let disappear from America. Here everyone becomes "us," and everyone is joined by one common goal.

 

Ask yourself, what you will have to do to fully assimilate into becoming and being an American once you land on these shores. Will you isolate yourself as an immigrant and be one of them, or will you renounce all that which you know and become one of us. Or perhaps, the ideal answer is to be somewhere in between?

 

 

 

The Irish did to a large degree help build America during the Revolution (I know the term build America refers to the Irish during a much later period.. but honestly let's not overlook the contribution of our earlier ancestors), and many of them were types of slaves and servants as well, like my own Irish ancestor to set foot in this country. He didn't come here of his choosing, but like many of the Irishmen that forcibly did during that time he made sure to give the British and German fighters a good kicking. I imagine how difficult it was for a man such as himself to integrate into the community he eventually did - mostly German/Dutch that understood little English (after he had just finished fighting them). They weren't busy spending time 'assimilating' they were busy farming, building businesses, churches, schools, and making colonies into States. Language skills in the way we think of our common dialects took generations. Muslims and Jews during pre-colonial times and beyond often had to hide who they were and what religion they practices.

 

What does assimilating mean exactly? Ever go to a country on a vacation and feel useless trying to pick up a language? Imagine how that might be for an immigrant, which may have varying lack of education levels. And yet they still manage to contribute to this country in a huge way. Their dress, manner, accent, and religion may be strange to you - but you may also be strange to them. And what if they feel embarrassed if they try quite hard and their English is just never 'good enough' for some people? Have you ever thought to wonder if some immigrants isolate themselves for many of the same reasons a perfectly English speaking immigrants we see on this forum all the time do? Loneliness, culture shock, racism, taunting, unsupportive individuals around them, education skills, discrimination, and various other psychological reasons? My husband has quite a thick accent and not one that an atypical American thinks of as English, but it is. He is routinely misunderstood, ignored, and judged but continues to deal with the public every day who have at times treated him like trash because he is an immigrant. Even something as simple as sitting down and ordering something, I may sometimes have to serve as translator, when the waitress gives him the ''deer in the headlights'' look. Routinely he is asked the stupidest questions about his country that even a five year old with basic sense should be able to know.

 

Europe has a problem, in particular France has a problem I've noticed when it comes to making good on the very spirit of what liberty means. Le Pen sought to make this problem even worse and take it to dangerous levels. The Jews of France are as discriminated against and maligned as the Muslims of France are. That is why you will see countless articles discussing rampant racism and Jewish families packing up and leaving. There is no uniqueness of self in France - one must all be French, and must behave in the way that is 'accepted' by the upper ruling class - that is to be secular. And what does to be French mean? To not be an individual? To conform to a herd? Is that also what to be an American means? Le Pen argued as others have taken steps to do in infringing on religious liberty (which is a deeply personal liberty in the psyche of the human individual) - where a Christian, a Jew, and Muslims could not publically practice or display their faith through dress or freedom of speech. How does an immigrant reconcile that? Hide whom they are? Disobey their god to suit the likes of man? To some degree this works in reverse in the UK - where it is still very much a church state (and you may be investigated for blasphemy), religious display of one religion is most dominated. And orthodox Jewish communities keep to themselves, nearly relegated to *one* area, and are often mocked for their way of dress, speech, and views. The term 'Jew' by some is tossed around like a slur or an amusing epitaph. I was disturbed to see it myself, to see the casual racism in a place I thought to expect to be more forward-thinking. It did not matter how long the immigrant had been there, or if their family had been their for generations and were just as British as the next - Brexit brought the ugly out. But the ugly has always been there, disturbingly, it's been there pre-WWII. I won't even go back further to how the English once treated the Irish, Welsh and Scots.... those uncivilized, funny speaking, religious weirdos....

 

And all this talk of ghettos really? Are you defining that by groups of poor people that all hang in one area? Seen a trailer park, or projects, or suburbia, or the rich upper crust areas of America that try not to venture into each other's zone? There were of course Irish ghettos back in the day or slums... oh and roving gangs and mobsters too. Naturally of course, each wave of immigrant has had to deal with the cries of assimilation, of being maligned and forced into 'ghettos', of viewed with suspicion and scorn, or made fun of because of language barriers or accents, religion, or dress. How did we ever manage?

 

Sorry for the mini rant, but it's super frustrating to research what immigrant ancestors went through, it just keeps happening again and again. You'd think we'd have learned by now. Life in America is tough for an immigrant these days, it was tougher in the old days, but our ancestors got some people to stop and use their brains a little so some didn't have to fight as hard. But we're regressing as a species so...

 

Edited May 8, 2017 by yuna628

[IAMX 3,055]

It's funny that someone would whine about assimilation in an immigration forum. 

 

Seriously, even non-immigrants have issues with language, and embarrassment, and they learn. Everyone learns the same way. No one just, *zap* suddenly knows the native language, like we're in the Matrix. Trial and error are part of life. Sympathizing with others because they move to another area where the language and customs are different seems foolish, especially in these days where people have instant access to understand quite a lot about a place they want to move to. 

 

This sort of inanity is exactly why in California you have so many from Mexico who get pissed off at you for not knowing Spanish, when the country they immigrated to speaks English. This attitude and the leftist sophistry that enables it both need a swift kick in the nuts. And we're not even into the dangers Europe faces because of their refugee policy which is far more concerning about safety than the irritating nuisance that I just mentioned. 

Edited May 8, 2017 by IAMX

[yuna628 9,547]

3 minutes ago, IAMX said:

It's funny that someone would whine about assimilation in an immigration forum. 

 

Seriously, even non-immigrants have issues with language, and embarrassment, and they learn. Everyone learns the same way. No one just, *zap* suddenly knows the native language, like we're in the Matrix. Trial and error are part of life. Sympathizing with others because they move to another area where the language and customs are different seems foolish, especially in these days where people have instant access to understand quite a lot about a place they want to move to. 

 

This sort of inanity is exactly why in California you have so many from Mexico who get pissed off at you for not knowing Spanish, when the country they immigrated to speaks English. This attitude and the leftist sophistry that enables it both need a swift kick in the nuts.

Everyone does not learn the same way. That is why our education system is a mess.

Non-immigrants that have 'language issues' would probably tell you they are proud of the poorly educated way they speak and to go take a flyin' leap if you care about how they talk in whatever poor dialogue they use.

And no, no one does just suddenly know the native language, but many Americans ignorantly expect immigrants to do so. They expect quite a lot of things but can't actually be bothered to show a little empathy and decency for fellow human beings.

[IAMX 3,055]

9 minutes ago, yuna628 said:

Everyone does not learn the same way. That is why our education system is a mess.

Non-immigrants that have 'language issues' would probably tell you they are proud of the poorly educated way they speak and to go take a flyin' leap if you care about how they talk in whatever poor dialogue they use.

And no, no one does just suddenly know the native language, but many Americans ignorantly expect immigrants to do so. They expect quite a lot of things but can't actually be bothered to show a little empathy and decency for fellow human beings.

What empathy are we talking about here? 

 

In all my years living in California I never once witnessed anyone get pissed off at an ESL immigrant because they were trying to speak English and they had issues with it. I've seen countless times people make fun of a native English speaker. I've seen countless times people who only speak Spanish get pissed off at English speakers in my state and country because they don't speak Spanish and cater to them. Trial and error are a part of learning. 

 

I dunno about other states but in mine there were countless free ESL courses everywhere at nearly every high school, college, or university. There are programs extended to immigrants to help them assimilate. I find your sympathy misguided. Western hands are quite often extended toward migrants to help them assimilate. If they elect not to, they have no one to blame but themselves. And preferably go back to their homeland.

 

As someone who has had to assimilate to another country (and gladly did, because it's not an unreasonable thing to require), even experiencing a culture shock, there is no requirement of sympathy or going easy on immigrants. If they want to assimilate, they will. If they don't, they're useless.

Edited May 8, 2017 by IAMX

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

18 minutes ago, IAMX said:

It's funny that someone would whine about assimilation in an immigration forum. 

 

Seriously, even non-immigrants have issues with language, and embarrassment, and they learn. Everyone learns the same way. No one just, *zap* suddenly knows the native language, like we're in the Matrix. Trial and error are part of life. Sympathizing with others because they move to another area where the language and customs are different seems foolish, especially in these days where people have instant access to understand quite a lot about a place they want to move to. 

 

This sort of inanity is exactly why in California you have so many from Mexico who get pissed off at you for not knowing Spanish, when the country they immigrated to speaks English. This attitude and the leftist sophistry that enables it both need a swift kick in the nuts. And we're not even into the dangers Europe faces because of their refugee policy which is far more concerning about safety than the irritating nuisance that I just mentioned. 

Funny I think is it funny we so so much bile and hatred directed to folks from other cultures on a site committed to immigration.  Guess it just depends where your sense of humour lies.  

[IAMX 3,055]

2 minutes ago, ccneat said:

Funny I think is it funny we so so much bile and hatred directed to folks from other cultures on a site committed to immigration.  Guess it just depends where your sense of humour lies.  

Not every culture is compatible with western values. Harsh reality.. some have a longer learning curve than others.

Edited May 8, 2017 by IAMX

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

Just now, IAMX said:

Not every culture is compatible with western values.

Not all folks who claim to represent western values demonstrate them in their language

[IAMX 3,055]

4 minutes ago, ccneat said:

Not all folks who claim to represent western values demonstrate them in their language

Indeed. They demonstrate them by unwillingness to learn the local language, or demanding people cater to them in their language. Of course, this attitude triggers leftist sympathies. Having been around immigrants and immigrant culture nearly all my life, I've seen first hand the results of catering to this sort of laziness. Being nice doesn't work. 

 

FTR, if I ever saw anyone making fun of an ESL person I'd gladly go after the idiot making fun of them. I just never encountered this.

 

Lastly, not all foreign cultures assimilate the same to western values. Some require a far more harsh and uncompromising tone for them to learn the boundaries. Those cultures tend to come from regions where acceptance of other cultures, beliefs, etc. is non-existent.

Edited May 8, 2017 by IAMX

[OriZ 3,157]

I don't think assimilating in America is hard. I'm not speaking just for myself but even the immigrants from Africa and the ME that I see around here, maybe it's because it's VT and nobody here really cares, but everyone seems nice to them and go out of their way to make them feel welcome. There are many businesses and clinics with signs refugees welcome, no matter where you're from we're glad to have you(in several languages) etc, anybody who in an environment like that can't be part of the community is 100% to blame.

[Amica Nostra 4,803]

1 minute ago, IAMX said:

Indeed. They demonstrate them by unwillingness to learn the local language, or demanding people cater to them in their language. Of course, this attitude triggers leftist sympathies. Having been around immigrants and immigrant culture nearly all my life, I've seen first hand the results of catering to this sort of laziness. Being nice doesn't work. 

 

FTR, if I ever saw anyone making fun of an ESL person I'd gladly go after the idiot making fun of them. I just never encountered this.

 

Lastly, not all foreign cultures assimilate the same to western values. Some require a far more harsh and uncompromising tone for them to learn the boundaries.

What are your list of essential Western Values?  I have my list..just curious if we have the same one.

[OriZ 3,157]

2 minutes ago, IAMX said:

Indeed. They demonstrate them by unwillingness to learn the local language, or demanding people cater to them in their language. Of course, this attitude triggers leftist sympathies. Having been around immigrants and immigrant culture nearly all my life, I've seen first hand the results of catering to this sort of laziness. Being nice doesn't work. 

 

FTR, if I ever saw anyone making fun of an ESL person I'd gladly go after the idiot making fun of them. I just never encountered this.

 

Lastly, not all foreign cultures assimilate the same to western values. Some require a far more harsh and uncompromising tone for them to learn the boundaries.

You're an immigrant, I'm an immigrant, my wife has been one(in Israel)...she had no problem there, I have no problem here, you've had no problems, so what's the problem? lol 

 

Seems like the problem is more mental barriers in people's minds than anything the countries they are moving to are doing. Claiming that the issues in Europe stem from racism is insane. Europe in the last 60 years has gone way out of its way and way overcompensated trying to show they are not racist, if nothing else.

[IAMX 3,055]

34 minutes ago, OriZ said:

You're an immigrant, I'm an immigrant, my wife has been one(in Israel)...she had no problem there, I have no problem here, you've had no problems, so what's the problem? lol 

 

Seems like the problem is more mental barriers in people's minds than anything the countries they are moving to are doing. Claiming that the issues in Europe stem from racism is insane. Europe in the last 60 years has gone way out of its way and way overcompensated trying to show they are not racist, if nothing else.

Pretty much. Regarding the "problem" as to why people keep suggesting it's racism, it's because the left are trained to think that any situation where minorities or immigrants have difficulty is inherently caused by the evil white man. While I understand quite well what evil white men have done in the past, it is also the past. The fact that the left often tend to live in the past, rather than the present, is partly what causes a backlash against their stupidity. If my ancestors did anything to slaves or whomever, I didn't, so I'm not going to feel responsible, nor will I feel guilty. If the left want to feel some embellished sense of guilt, so be it, but acting like idiots and catering excessively to others is a dumb and comically superficial way to try and absolve one's self of feeling guilty. "We wrecked people in the past, so lets just wreck people in the present too.. we're even!"

Edited May 8, 2017 by IAMX