New K1 subforums?

[jlvr 1]

And jvlr: I guess don't see how having a 'new place' for the pouring out of excitement or anxiety totally removes that as a feature of VJ.

Yeah, I know. Probably overstating again for dramatic effect. I guess as long as it's clearly marked, people can find their way there.

Oh, and by the way, I get what you're saying about how CSC filers feel about VSC filers, which is not at all resentful, just sad, impatient, frustrated and a little envious without malice.

Edited March 28, 2007 by jlvr

[Otto 83]

This Just In....Breaking News From The K1 Discussion Forum....

VSC Separatist have started a new thread...

K1 Fiance General Discussion>VSC Late March Filers.....

Emergency Council Meeting called... Should It Be Moved?....Is This Allowed?...Under Who's Authority? Will Early VSC March Filers be left out?.....Protestors Gathering.... Civil Disobedience Reported....

[no name 1]

This Just In....Breaking News From The K1 Discussion Forum....

VSC Separatist have started a new thread...

K1 Fiance General Discussion>VSC Late March Filers.....

Emergency Council Meeting called... Should It Be Moved?....Is This Allowed?...Under Who's Authority? Will Early VSC March Filers be left out?.....Protestors Gathering.... Civil Disobedience Reported....

It is wrong, IMO. Late march filers, come on!!!

Contrary to what you might think, we ARE having an intelligent discussion here, and we have read your bolded/caps posts, it is too hard to miss them. SHEESH.

Just as another idea, how about renaming the existing K-1 forum from 'K-1 Fiance(e) Visa General Discussion' to K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Questions and Help' and then adding a new one underneath called 'K-1 Fiance(e) Visa Case Filing and Progress Reports'

Andy-

I think Visa Case Filing & Progress Reports is a great name but it doesn't imply anything about touching/NOA1/NOA2 posts. I'm thinking on it...

[jlvr 1]

Uh, yeah, that late March thread has been there for a few days now.

[Andy 2]

I think Visa Case Filing & Progress Reports is a great name but it doesn't imply anything about touching/NOA1/NOA2 posts. I'm thinking on it...

Well, no idea is perfect. I am a committee after all!

But I think that sort of name makes sense and does imply any activity - or could be named in such a way as it includes any such activity.

Of course, let's not forget that there's a descriptive line under the title that would allow for an explanation of the purpose. Not everyone will read that, but most do.

I think many people, seeing the original title change to 'Questions and Help' will have a good grasp of the purpose of 'Case Filing & Progress Reports', and new posters who weren't used to the old scheme will be easily guided there if they don't work it out for themselves.

[TracyTN 237]

I think the name doesn't have to imply everything that will be moved in there. Surely after people see touch threads getting moved there, they will 'get wise' to where they should be starting those threads.

Karin und Otto: I love a good joke as much as the next person, but I feel that we really am trying to accomplish something for the site in this thread. If you think its a dumb idea, please give us your opinion (preferably in a way that doesn't make us wonder whether or not you're being serious). Thanks!

[meauxna 15]

with all the EMPHASIS on timelines and 'who is processing where', newer members get to thinking these things are what drives the community. Hence they continue to stress about the stuff, and perhaps get upset - perhaps with people and processes.

Agreed. People model what they see--that's how all these trends get going--right down to the timeline in the siggy business.

What I haven't seen answered is: What does any of this do to encourage people to actually be researching their own information or be reading ahead on their own process? I'm constantly surprised by the busy posters who turn up in the AOS forums (and others later down the road) asking 'eek, what now?! I haven't studied a thing and I need to mail this AOS next week!'. It is so much easier for people to simply ask the question and have the forum repeat repeat repeat that valuable information from past threads gets discarded. Gentle attempts to get people to read more get slammed like devilette has experienced (unfairly) this week--attempts like Ewok's 'Please consider reading the Guides..' message is clearly ignored.

Members also don't feel a contributory responsibility--that is what I miss about the olden days. Interview and experience posts are few and far between, the FAQ is falling into a shambles alongside the Guides and there is an uproar when someone's Consular post isn't listed in the reviews---because no one else before has bothered to add it to the site. IMO, members depend too much on the VJ gods to just deliver all the info (and are snippy if something is out of date!) instead of helping keep this dynamic information current.

Ewok is one creature. Site design & implementation, administration, moderate all the minutia of some very silly threads AND be an expert on all angles of immigration to keep the guides etc up to date? sheesh.

There are a lot of people who do contribute to keeping things up--I in no way mean to demean their contributions. But all of the 'new inventions' that members create on their own (timieline threads etc) seems like energy that could be channeled into activities that benefit the whole instead of a handful.

[Niels Bohr 72]

Hmmm....If everyone read the guide, there's no sense of having a forum. Is there?

Very strange indeed that this topic is even talked about.

[featherB 1]

Hmmm....If everyone read the guide, there's no sense of having a forum. Is there?

Very strange indeed that this topic is even talked about.

Are you serious?

[payxibka 10,044]

Members also don't feel a contributory responsibility--that is what I miss about the olden days. Interview and experience posts are few and far between, the FAQ is falling into a shambles alongside the Guides and there is an uproar when someone's Consular post isn't listed in the reviews---because no one else before has bothered to add it to the site. IMO, members depend too much on the VJ gods to just deliver all the info (and are snippy if something is out of date!) instead of helping keep this dynamic information current.

Ewok is one creature. Site design & implementation, administration, moderate all the minutia of some very silly threads AND be an expert on all angles of immigration to keep the guides etc up to date? sheesh.

There are a lot of people who do contribute to keeping things up--I in no way mean to demean their contributions. But all of the 'new inventions' that members create on their own (timieline threads etc) seems like energy that could be channeled into activities that benefit the whole instead of a handful.

I could not agree more... This board is a transient place and members come and go. New members must be willing to self-educate themselves and be willing step in and take the place of the existing knowledgebase when they decide to move on. How many people here have the patience of a YuandDan to answer the same question 10 times a day... Certainly not me... I think as Matt85 said the other day that these people need to not be spoonfed but to be taught how to fish.....

[Otto 83]

I think the name doesn't have to imply everything that will be moved in there. Surely after people see touch threads getting moved there, they will 'get wise' to where they should be starting those threads.

Karin und Otto: I love a good joke as much as the next person, but I feel that we really am trying to accomplish something for the site in this thread. If you think its a dumb idea, please give us your opinion (preferably in a way that doesn't make us wonder whether or not you're being serious). Thanks!

Seriously - where does this thread end? (once YOU'RE done with K1, what's next? AOS? The Embassy Forum?)

The question at the beginning was simple: "[Pin] We were thinking of K1 subforums - one for VSC filers and one for CSC (TSC/NSC) filers"...and it's gone far into the dark hole being 'intelligently' discussed here. A lesson on how a good idea gets washed down the drain when people attempt to prove how 'intelligent or mature' they are...

My response was ridiculous - to show the ridiculousness of the constant wavering discussion. You started the thread - with a simple point and where is that point now? Sub-Sub-dividing threads...? sub-sub-sub-dividing... Over analyzing the entire Forum.. That my friend is ridiculous.

BTW-who are you to suggest to anyone how to respond?

[jlvr 1]

Hmmm....If everyone read the guide, there's no sense of having a forum. Is there?

Very strange indeed that this topic is even talked about.

That's not true, there is a lot of stuff in the guides that is confusing. Reading threads sometimes adds to the confusion. It can be difficult to tell from the guides what will be different in your specific case, at which embassy, etc. I don't think that people asking questions in forums can be put down to just not reading the guides. They seem straightforward, but they sometimes aren't.

There was a mention in the first couple of pages about transferring and I did not know what stage of the process it was referring to. I did a search and came up with a thread that was all about transferring but it took a long time to figure out what that meant and why, not to mention why it might be beneficial.

As far as interviewing and things further along the process, I have seen discussion on that take place in the regional thread that I read. But I guess it's the kind of thing that should also be posted in the forum for whatever stage of the process it falls under.

[featherB 1]

I think the name doesn't have to imply everything that will be moved in there. Surely after people see touch threads getting moved there, they will 'get wise' to where they should be starting those threads.

Karin und Otto: I love a good joke as much as the next person, but I feel that we really am trying to accomplish something for the site in this thread. If you think its a dumb idea, please give us your opinion (preferably in a way that doesn't make us wonder whether or not you're being serious). Thanks!

Seriously - where does this thread end? (once YOU'RE done with K1, what's next? AOS? The Embassy Forum?)

Sure, if people think there might be room for improvement in those, why not? Half the point here is trying to make the K1 forum somewhere that people might come back to contribute to, and offer advice in, once they are 'done with K1', isn't it?

[Andy 2]

What I haven't seen answered is: What does any of this do to encourage people to actually be researching their own information or be reading ahead on their own process? I'm constantly surprised by the busy posters who turn up in the AOS forums (and others later down the road) asking 'eek, what now?! I haven't studied a thing and I need to mail this AOS next week!'. It is so much easier for people to simply ask the question and have the forum repeat repeat repeat that valuable information from past threads gets discarded. Gentle attempts to get people to read more get slammed like devilette has experienced (unfairly) this week--attempts like Ewok's 'Please consider reading the Guides..' message is clearly ignored.

Members also don't feel a contributory responsibility--that is what I miss about the olden days. Interview and experience posts are few and far between, the FAQ is falling into a shambles alongside the Guides and there is an uproar when someone's Consular post isn't listed in the reviews---because no one else before has bothered to add it to the site. IMO, members depend too much on the VJ gods to just deliver all the info (and are snippy if something is out of date!) instead of helping keep this dynamic information current.

Ewok is one creature. Site design & implementation, administration, moderate all the minutia of some very silly threads AND be an expert on all angles of immigration to keep the guides etc up to date? sheesh.

There are a lot of people who do contribute to keeping things up--I in no way mean to demean their contributions. But all of the 'new inventions' that members create on their own (timieline threads etc) seems like energy that could be channeled into activities that benefit the whole instead of a handful.

There are two issues to consider from this I think:

The first is human nature. People really don't read before asking and by and large they never have. VJ, like every other immigration resource, and other such places I frequent, have always been awash with questions that a bit of reading or some light research would have answered without much trouble. But most users interact with the site along the line of least resistance/easiest personal experience and that is to post first and look around second.... assuming they ever get that far!

We can try all sorts of ways to mitigate this behavior, but in reality it won't work - at least not without risking damaging the service being offered here. Posting replies along the lines of 'read the guides' is understandable, and informative in that if the user hasn't read them or doesn't know they're there, they are being pointed to a resource that has considerable potential benefit to them, but for many it will leave them frustrated at the apparently dismissive responses they get here and they'll go elsewhere. Likewise, if they DO read the guides and can't figure out what they mean or how they relate to the information - and many users simply wouldn't have enough notion to begin to understand without some assistance at least, they'll also go elsewhere.

I can't say I am surprised or disappointed though that you see the same faces pop up later in their own process still asking questions. Researching the whole process at the outset can make the entire process seem far more daunting and complex than it really is, and answer lots of questions they don't have in their own situation. Not only that, but it risks them being out of date on information is the process changes or some new issue comes to light while they are underway.

There was a notion at one point, a long time ago now, to combine the guides and faqs into a series of downloadable files such that when logging in, options to download documents about specific case types, procedures or supporting information would be presented to them rather than leave it to a more passive notice and for people to have to click on things in order to get into the data. It never happened because at the time VJ was much smaller and it seemed less urgent than perhaps now, and because the difficulty in ensuring the information was kept up to date by those who actually knew for sure what they were talking about would have inevitably led to outdated information at times. That would not always be a problem in itself, but there would have been an unacceptable risk of misleading a user and causing potentially serious problems. The same is true of the informational content on the site as it is, except that of course because it's not widely read and users post instead, they don't see it in the guides/faq where it tends to carry more authority than a misleading post in the forum which everyone knows can't reliably be taken as true and good advice.

The second is moderation. Without the sort of active moderation that VJ hasn't had since Steve's day, just about any content is OK and the culture and climate has changed as a result. People often forget that good moderation isn't about curtailing freedom of speech or hacking posts or threads apart, but about ensuring the forum is fit for purpose and that it stays on mission. The lack of it leads to a rather shambolic place that is full of content that tugs the whole venture away from what it is supposed to do by obscuring content that is what the site is supposed to be about.

I remember the cliques of a not-so-long-ago where just about every thread turned into a bouncing round of inane contributions about fruit etc, making it impossible to provide help and assistance and continually preventing useful discussion. The contributors didn't intend to have that effect, but that's the consequence of it. We still see many threads that degenerate with off-topic and completely irrelevant contributions, and ultimately it makes it harder for the knowledgeable to respond coherently and have their replies considered, and it makes it harder for someone with a question to ask get the help and assistance they need.

Active moderation resolves those things and if done well, is barely noticeable in any way except that the posters who need help are more visible, and those who want to help are more able to deliver it.

Oh, and I guess the third of two issues: many members seem to place very little value in VJ as a resource, somewhat taking for granted their right to be here and post what they like without consideration to others or the consequence. Users need to be reminded (again, a moderator can do this) when people step out of line with snippy posts or insulting or divisive comment, just as those who may be able to help keep the guides and faqs together and up to date need to be supported in that effort.

[TracyTN 237]

I think the name doesn't have to imply everything that will be moved in there. Surely after people see touch threads getting moved there, they will 'get wise' to where they should be starting those threads.

Karin und Otto: I love a good joke as much as the next person, but I feel that we really am trying to accomplish something for the site in this thread. If you think its a dumb idea, please give us your opinion (preferably in a way that doesn't make us wonder whether or not you're being serious). Thanks!

Seriously - where does this thread end? (once YOU'RE done with K1, what's next? AOS? The Embassy Forum?)

The question at the beginning was simple: "[Pin] We were thinking of K1 subforums - one for VSC filers and one for CSC (TSC/NSC) filers"...and it's gone far into the dark hole being 'intelligently' discussed here. A lesson on how a good idea gets washed down the drain when people attempt to prove how 'intelligent or mature' they are...

My response was ridiculous - to show the ridiculousness of the constant wavering discussion. You started the thread - with a simple point and where is that point now? Sub-Sub-dividing threads...? sub-sub-sub-dividing... Over analyzing the entire Forum.. That my friend is ridiculous.

BTW-who are you to suggest to anyone how to respond?

Clearly I can't control the end or 'life' of any thread I start. That, my friend, is out of my control.

In fact, its often a challenge to find ANY thread that stays on its original subject (unless that topic asks a specific question which can be definitively answered).

In this thread, we came to the agreement to add more mods and come up with a forum for the purpose I suggested (as stated by Ewok). I thought the purpose today was to try and agree on a forum name (or toss ideas out there for such names).

Granted, it took some time and MANY posts to get there (even off the original topic), as threads often do.

I'm not 'suggesting' how you should respond. I simply asked you to offer us your opinion (I even said 'please'!). I was having trouble understanding what your opinion was based on your contribution in the last few posts. I *assumed* you had one if you bothered to come into the thread and read it at all. Apparently a bad assumption on my part.

Since its upsetting your sensibilities so badly, why don't I ask Ewok to lock this thread once he has chimed in on what he feels we should name the new forum. That, my friend, is something I'm sure we can accomodate.

Edited March 28, 2007 by TracyTN