Moscow Is ‘Ready for Combat,’ NATO Says

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Berlin, Warsaw, Prague, and Budapest are probably better. Simferopol, Chisinau, Minsk, and Donetsk? Not so much. Again, it's not that the USSR rocked. It's just that the last two decades kind of sucked for certain parts of Eastern Europe. You could be right that it's a lot of selective remembering and that the USSR was worse than people remember, but that's not really relevant. If people think the past was better, it's a losing proposition to try to convince them that it wasn't.

I'm curious though why you assume that everything got better for everyone when the USSR fell and anyone who says otherwise has a bad memory. Did you live in the USSR? Even if you did, maybe you're the one with the bad memory. Or maybe it just matters what part of the USSR/Warsaw pact you were in (which is kind of my whole point).

So there you have it. Those still under Soviet rule - either directly or via Moscow's puppets - have been cheated out of the fruits of the fall of the Soviet Union. And as long as the remaining Soviet empire casts its shadow over them, they won't see those fruits. This is why they're looking westward. Not because there are unicorns or walks in the park to be had. But because there's a shot at a better future to be had. A shot that people in Berlin and Warsaw and Budapest and Prague and Bratislava were afforded and turned into something good. That opportunity is something Moscow isn't delivering. Not to its own people and not to those on the peripheries. The only way Moscow can maintain its influence in those parts is by brute force and military intimidation. That's what we see in Ukraine today. It's nothing new. It's what Moscow has always done. It's how they held onto the Eastern Block for almost half a century. Not because people wanted it but because they were forced to comply. There were attempts to break free in Berlin (1953) and Budapest (1958) and Prague (1968). And each time, the Soviets rolled out their tanks and murdered those seeking freedom in order to maintain their brutal grip on these nations. I see the parallels quite clearly.

[SMR 368]

So there you have it. Those still under Soviet rule - either directly or via Moscow's puppets - have been cheated out of the fruits of the fall of the Soviet Union. And as long as the remaining Soviet empire casts its shadow over them, they won't see those fruits. This is why they're looking westward. Not because there are unicorns or walks in the park to be had. But because there's a shot at a better future to be had. A shot that people in Berlin and Warsaw and Budapest and Prague and Bratislava were afforded and turned into something good. That opportunity is something Moscow isn't delivering. Not to its own people and not to those on the peripheries. The only way Moscow can maintain its influence in those parts is by brute force and military intimidation. That's what we see in Ukraine today. It's nothing new. It's what Moscow has always done. It's how they held onto the Eastern Block for almost half a century. Not because people wanted it but because they were forced to comply. There were attempts to break free in Berlin (1953) and Budapest (1958) and Prague (1968). And each time, the Soviets rolled out their tanks and murdered those seeking freedom in order to maintain their brutal grip on these nations. I see the parallels quite clearly.

I'm under no delusions about the bad things that happened in the USSR and the bad things that are happening in Russia and Ukraine today. I think you're making some excellent points here. You're lumping totalitarianism, and communism, and 'Soviet,' and thuggery, and organized crime all together, though.

The real point, though, is that when you try to throw a dictator out, you have to be very careful with what comes next or things are just going to get a lot worse. I think the new government in Ukraine is making a lot of mistakes.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I'm under no delusions about the bad things that happened in the USSR and the bad things that are happening in Russia and Ukraine today. I think you're making some excellent points here. You're lumping totalitarianism, and communism, and 'Soviet,' and thuggery, and organized crime all together, though.

The real point, though, is that when you try to throw a dictator out, you have to be very careful with what comes next or things are just going to get a lot worse. I think the new government in Ukraine is making a lot of mistakes.

I'm not saying that they are not making mistakes. But what they threw out in Kiev was essentially the Mafia with government IDs. And whatever mistakes they make right now, it does not mean that the high held principle of territorial integrity all of a sudden doesn't apply to Ukraine anymore. It does and it is not within the Kremlin's right to decide otherwise. Putin certainly has enough problems of his own. He should work on those rather than creating more outside of his borders.

[SMR 368]

Well, to get back to the specific example of Ukraine, the problem is, as I've said before, that this particular government can't legitimately claim to be THE government of Ukraine. Territorial integrity only really makes sense when you have a well defined country with a government with undeniable legitimacy.

Edited April 17, 2014 by SMR

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Well, to get back to the specific example of Ukraine, the problem is, as I've said before, that this particular government can legitimately claim to be THE government of Ukraine. Territorial integrity only really makes sense when you have a well defined country with a government with undeniable legitimacy.

Well, seeing the funny elections that go on in Russia - with turnouts sometimes exceeding 100% - one could argue that Russia lacks a legitimate government. Certainly the governments of the Eastern Block weren't legitimate by any stretch of the imagination and yet nobody questioned that these countries had a claim to their territorial integrity. Egypt has that claim. As does Libya. As does Syria, by the way. If you want to talk about illegitimate governments.

The current government of Ukraine is a transitional government which is comprised of the political forces that are represented in parliament. Those political forces have been elected to that body, they didn't just walk in there and took over. Everyone understands that it is a transitional government and that the people of Ukraine will elect a new government soon. Well, everyone but Putin and his trolls.

[SMR 368]

Well, seeing the funny elections that go on in Russia - with turnouts sometimes exceeding 100% - one could argue that Russia lacks a legitimate government. Certainly the governments of the Eastern Block weren't legitimate by any stretch of the imagination and yet nobody questioned that these countries had a claim to their territorial integrity. Egypt has that claim. As does Libya. As does Syria, by the way. If you want to talk about illegitimate governments.

If I physically control the White House does the entire US automatically have to bow to me? The assertion that during a revolution territorial integrity is infallible is neither reasonable nor supported by history.

The current government of Ukraine is a transitional government which is comprised of the political forces that are represented in parliament. Those political forces have been elected to that body, they didn't just walk in there and took over. Everyone understands that it is a transitional government and that the people of Ukraine will elect a new government soon. Well, everyone but Putin and his trolls.

Wait, so if Republicans were to drive out Barack Obama and Joe Biden by force you would acknowledge John Boehner as the legitimate head of the government? Even if John Boehner was the one who orchestrated their ouster? How far does that extend? How many people do I have to get rid of before I'm king of the universe?

On a side note, you keep using the word troll but I don't think it means what you think it means.

Now, I'm not trying to say this is all cut and dry. It's just that once you throw out an existing government (or an important part of an existing government), you don't just get to instantly lay legitimate claim to everything that government previously controlled.

Edited April 17, 2014 by SMR

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

Now, I'm not trying to say this is all cut and dry. It's just that once you throw out an existing government (or an important part of an existing government), you don't just get to instantly lay legitimate claim to everything that government previously controlled.

That knife cuts both ways, though. The Russian separatists in the Eastern Ukraine have even less legitimacy than the government in Kiev. Putin as the head of the government of a foreign nation has less legitimacy in Ukraine than the government in Kiev. Plain and simple. The only people that can legitimately resolve this are the people of Ukraine not Putin and his puppets.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

My wife is originally from West Berlin and she is befuddled by the younger crowd and tourists who visit the city and expect to see the remains of The Wall or stretches of No Man's Land, as though they were something to be cherished, instead of shameful monuments to the obscenity of the soviet era.

Strange city, with all the war monuments built by the post ww2 occupying powers.

They also have those little stolperstein plaques on the pavements to commemorate victims of the Holocaust. Quite sobering really.

[Asia 2,491]

Moreover, while life in the USSR wasn't great for many USSR citizens and other Warsaw pact countries, the fall of the USSR didn't exactly bring unicorns, rainbows, and butterflies for anyone involved. The Baltics and some of the Balkans have done quite well but the rest of the former USSR/warsaw pact countries aren't so clear cut. It's not just a question of the Cold War being remembered in a positive light. It's also about how much better it has gotten since then. In some places it has unfortunately gotten worse.

Right.

After USSR collapsed people in Poland and Ukraine were living the similar lives.

And look where they are today.

Ukraine has been under Russia influence for those 20 years, so they are still something 20 years behind now.

And I'm really not surprised that they don't want to stay behind anymore.

And yet I'm really not surprised that Putin don't want them to move forward. Cause that's who he is. That's the Russian democracy for you.

[Asia 2,491]

Nobody expected butterflies and rainbows and unicorns. But the picture then and now is like night and day - in that order. It is true that when speaking with people, it appears that many have forgotten just how bad it was. I've had many of those discussions back home. The younger generation simply doesn't know because they weren't around or too young then. But make no mistake, from Berlin to Warsaw to Prague to Budapest and beyond, things have gotten better. Less even but better. A lot better than they were. Period.

Unfortunately I've spent all my +1's for today, so I can't give you one but thank you for your words.

I don't want to be sucked into another discussion with Putin's puppets, but I applause anyone who has enough strength to do so.

Thank you!

[dalegg 143]

Ok, lets explore your comparison further then.

What do you think would be our response of Mexico formed a Military alliance with Russia.... and Russia wanted to install Missiles there?

Why were we so upset when The USSR has such plans in Cuba?

I don't know who the Ukraine is forming an alliance with that is an open threat to Russia, but that isn't what I was making a point against anyway. I read the statement where Russia said Russian people were being discriminated against over there so it felt it had the right to go in and protect them. That's absurd, and maybe Mexico never owned Arizona but I'm sure I can find a part of the US that Mexico did once control and make the same comparison to maybe make the argument a little less poor.

Actually, I'm pretty suprised that there are people here who think what Russia is doing here is okay. Definitely news to me here.

[Mr. Big Dog 10,747]

I don't know who the Ukraine is forming an alliance with that is an open threat to Russia, but that isn't what I was making a point against anyway. I read the statement where Russia said Russian people were being discriminated against over there so it felt it had the right to go in and protect them. That's absurd, and maybe Mexico never owned Arizona but I'm sure I can find a part of the US that Mexico did once control and make the same comparison to maybe make the argument a little less poor.

Actually, I'm pretty suprised that there are people here who think what Russia is doing here is okay. Definitely news to me here.

Extreme right wingers have a hard-on for authoritarian figures like Putin. Not only in the US. Same in Europe, too. They see Putin make a Hitler-like move when grabbing Crimea and they start imagining what could be. It really gets them going.

[JohnR! 5,495]

Strange city, with all the war monuments built by the post ww2 occupying powers.

They also have those little stolperstein plaques on the pavements to commemorate victims of the Holocaust. Quite sobering really.

I love it though, especially after the collapse of the wall. It didn't take much too long for it to become the capital of Europe again.

[Danno 1,228]

I don't know who the Ukraine is forming an alliance with that is an open threat to Russia, but that isn't what I was making a point against anyway. I read the statement where Russia said Russian people were being discriminated against over there so it felt it had the right to go in and protect them. That's absurd, and maybe Mexico never owned Arizona but I'm sure I can find a part of the US that Mexico did once control and make the same comparison to maybe make the argument a little less poor.

Actually, I'm pretty suprised that there are people here who think what Russia is doing here is okay. Definitely news to me here.

Maybe you are not aware we have invested 5 billion dollars in Ukraine for the singular purpose of pulling them away from their ties with Russia and into the arms of the EU and of course the military alliance NATO.

THAT is what this is about.

It's not about us spending 5 bil on getting their economy up or to open up trade without the NATO connection. It's not about us trying to help some struggling country.

They come to NATO, we deliver help... No NATO, no help.

This is not about wanting Russia to swallow Ukraine... it's about understanding why they feel they have no choice.

Be fair minded, would we tolerate the USSR encircling us?

[Danno 1,228]

Extreme right wingers have a hard-on for authoritarian figures like Putin. Not only in the US. Same in Europe, too. They see Putin make a Hitler-like move when grabbing Crimea and they start imagining what could be. It really gets them going.

So Putin is playing the roll of Hitler and Obama is playing the roll of?